Female Hrothgar as a playable race. Show your support!

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

The playerbase, not the lore.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Wut?
1-Larger muscles are a "masculine" trait. Plan and simple, it's how our society sees things. Just google "hypermasculine" if you want to see what people pushing for that manly look do. You can def have X traits and still look Y and still look beautiful. Male Viera look feminine but are still males, for example. I never said having masculine traits takes away from someone's femininity or is a bad thing at all for real women, but if we're talking about characters races that people will likely play, that's different. Nothing wrong with a furry woman looking like Henry Cavill, but turning that female into a race in an MMO and you're getting less-than-Femroe-numbers easy.

2-I'm a furry and actually want furries to have something that appeals to that aesthetic. If instead of highlanders we had, say, Lupins with highlander's bodies annnnd if instead of Lala being tiny Elezen they were tiny Mice people ANNND if instead of Draggos being C@s with scales they looked like scalies then I wouldn't care nearly as much. They would be adding more furry options in a game with a number of other furry options. But this is the 1 and only furry female option that's gonna be in this game, need to make that appealing to a good amount of people who like furries. And though Gay Bara-furries are big in the scene, that's not the case for females.

3-I've played Femroe for more than enough years to know why so much gear looks bad on them. Don't want to go through the struggles of the fat wrist fam again.

1-
Who the heck has been talking about "Larger" Muscles? All I ever said was "Muscular Female"
Muscles are not a Masculine Trait, its a physical feature you can work your body to grow. Both Men and Women can do this, and to varying Levels. Its not exclusive to men or exclusively a Masculine Trait. And having muscles doesn't turn you into The Man of Steel.

2-
Female Hrothgar don't need to appeal to a HUGE demographic to be successful or worth the time.
They need to appeal to a Niche. The whole point of them being put into FFXIV, is to fill that missing niche, and offer a whole new option that isn't just another human. EVERY option before Hrothgar was just another human, now there is finally a Non-Human Option.
By concept of being a BeastRace, not everybody is going to play it anyway, so being so concerned with its popularity just seems M00t
Beside remember....people talk crap about the male hrothgar; and you can chalk it up to sexism/males just being able to get away with it/being more popular. But the fact remains, even with the Unpopular features, they have a playerbase and people like them more then others will admit.

3-
All Im gonna say is...try harder. Not that you should be trying that hard to begin with, its not hard to make an attractive Female Roe or to Glamour one.

[reivaxe]

This logic does not hold.

Gunnhildr is the Roegadyn shown in contrast to the Hrothgar depicted in the mural.

Therefore her model should not be an indication of what female Hrothgar's body shape will be, except perhaps to extrapolate from it.

Also if they have simply borrowed another non-NPC model such as Sophia for practical purposes, they might not have even checked or wanted to alter it to Roegadyn proportions, rather than a deliberate choice to make her different to the standard body shape.

Gunnhildr is in the mural as a normal Femroe, showing her form before becoming queen. The model we see in game is post-Queendom (also has glowy cat eyes) and as such looks different from a normal FemRoe and matches the shape of the mural Hrothgar.
We're also shown a completely normal FemRoe obtaining that body after taking the Queen into herself, implying that this power is indeed changing their shape.

Also, this isn't some monster-model. When this was data mined, miners took note of it as being an NPC that used FemRoe's scaling system and skin yet "didn't look like one".

[Raskbuck]

I feel a lot of this debate would be solved if they expanded on the character creation to allow for different body types. But considering it's a monumental task to even add additional hairstyles or hats for the already existing genders, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Maybe in the far future, if we get another Dalamud to nuke the game and revamp the engine and/or clear the spaghetti code.

[Iscah]

Gunnhildr is in the mural as a normal Femroe, showing her form before becoming queen. The model we see in game is post-Queendom (also has glowy cat eyes) and as such looks different from a normal FemRoe and matches the shape of the mural Hrothgar.
We're also shown a completely normal FemRoe obtaining that body after taking the Queen into herself, implying that this power is indeed changing their shape.

Gunnhildr is just as likely in the mural as the individual person Gunnhildr – or if you want to be technical, the specific Roegadyn who would later be crowned Gunnhildr.

Whatever you want to call her, she was seen first in mortal form in the flashback with that same body shape, and there's no reason to assume she somehow changed from before she was queen to afterwards.

I just don't see the reason why you would point at a character who makes a whole point of not being a Hrothgar and say that she must be designed to give us a preview of what Hrothgar will look like.

[reivaxe]

stuff.

I tire of your strawman (no, me saying some hrothgar female art in here looks like Henry Cavill with tits is not an indication of my own views of what is acceptable for a RL woman to achieve through physical fitness) so lets clear this up.

Do you think that, society as a whole, views that type of body shapes depicted in these same few female Hrothgar art as feminine or masculine? I'd say most would consider that masculine. In fact, many workout instructors have to deal with women who want to work out but are afraid they will suddenly get buff af like a Body builder because they don't know that that takes years of dedicated specialized training. Regardless of if you think it is or isn't, I'd ask you to think, "do most people think this way?".

Do you think that type of shape would be popular for a female in an MMO? I don't, that's not a traditionally appealing body shape for women, and I have seen many cases of women with unconventional bodies be overlooked in all manner of MMO.

Do you think this race's key feature is "animal head on human body"? I do, seems like the stand-out thing that makes people either want to play or avoid it.

Do you think most furry who like females want that body type? I don't, gay Bara-furries who like the Male Hrothgar bod are big on the scene, but that's not the case with females. Furry fandom makes room for all types as it's very inclusive, but there's def less popular things. Make a female furry with the shape of that kinda art and I'm confident they will be the new least played thing in this game, where Femroe's numbers are already tragic. Give them a conventionally attractive bod, and you give them much more of a chance to grab the eye of those types.

If you really don't care about asking them to be the least played thing in this game, cutting the appeal to the furry fandom at its knees, just so you can get the body type you want ... then I guess there's nothing for us to talk about. I don't really see the need to argue on behalf of common knowledge ... I think we all know what's considered conventionally attractive, regardless of personal taste.

And naaah fam lmao, the fact you thought the Queen had a typical Femroe body because "I don't stare at body shapes" pretty much tells me we don't have the same eye for detail and taste. You can keep playing FemRoe though, more power to you if you like everything you wear. Power and respect to the fat wrist fam.

Whatever you want to call her, she was seen first in mortal form in the flashback with that same body shape, and there's no reason to assume she somehow changed from before she was queen to afterwards..

In the flash back, she was dead and fully merged with the blade.
We legit see her FemRoe relative, who looks like your arvg FemRoe, change her shape to match that of the queen once she took the blade into herself, just like the long dead queen did.
I'm also going to assume having glowy thriller cat eyes isn't a thing she had as a reg FemRoe.

So you have a mural depicting the FemRoe that's to become the Queen. Looks like your arvg FemRoe frame.
Queen FemRoe with a non-FemRoe bod after merging with the whole of that weapon's memories of queens from the past. Has Glowy Cat eyes and the bod looks more like the Hrothgar in the mural.
Confirmation through lore that though the Queen wasn't always Hrothgar, they were by large the mostly always Hrothgar.
A descendant who also looks like an arvg FemRoe.
Descendant also gains that body shape after merging with the blade.
Miners showing that this bod uses FemRoe scaling system and isn't special in some strange way, could have easily tossed sheets on a FemRoe in a swimsuit to make that outfit but didn't.



IDK what else to tell ya.
Even if you don't think that bod means anything, we should all be able to agree that the mural depicts hrothgar as being shorter and thinner with narrower waist-n-shoulders and more feminine curves and that bod also is "thinner with narrower waist-n-shoulders and more feminine curves" than a FemRoe.
I don't personally think they would put that mural in the game if they weren't sure about them looking that way.

I feel a lot of this debate would be solved if they expanded on the character creation to allow for different body types. But considering it's a monumental task to even add additional hairstyles or hats for the already existing genders, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Maybe in the far future, if we get another Dalamud to nuke the game and revamp the engine and/or clear the spaghetti code.

Pretty much what I've been saying for ... days now?
The nature of this game, giving you zero body CC, makes is so that you have to hope a race has the body you want. There is nothing wrong with wanting buff women, but when you only have 1 body type for a race you gotta take that into account.

Hope we get that graphics update some time.

[Iscah]

Mural for reference so I don't have to find it again.

In the flash back, she was dead and fully merged with the blade.
We legit see her FemRoe relative, who looks like your arvg FemRoe, change her shape to match that of the queen once she took the blade into herself, just like the long dead queen did.
I'm also going to assume having glowy thriller cat eyes isn't a thing she had as a reg FemRoe.

So you have a mural depicting the FemRoe that's to become the Queen. Looks like your arvg FemRoe frame.
Queen FemRoe with a non-FemRoe bod after merging with the whole of that weapon's memories of queens from the past. Has Glowy Cat eyes and the bod looks more like the Hrothgar in the mural.
Confirmation through lore that though the Queen wasn't always Hrothgar, they were by large the mostly always Hrothgar.
A descendant who also looks like an arvg FemRoe.
Descendant also gains that body shape after merging with the blade.
Miners showing that this bod uses FemRoe scaling system and isn't special in some strange way, could have easily tossed sheets on a FemRoe in a swimsuit to make that outfit but didn't.

I've rewatched the cutscene and I disagree with your take on it.

The prior quest Picking Up the Trail makes it clear that Gunnhildr possessed the Echo and "did not die, nor was she consumed by the eikon's power" when she attempted to sacrifice herself to draw on the power of the blade - it seems to have effectively been an incarnate summoning, and it's even compared to Ysayle doing the same with Shiva' power.

Every incarnate summoning we've seen has involved the summoner taking on the form of the primal to some extent to use its power, and then reverting to their own form afterwards - if not willingly, then on defeat or death.

And what we see in the vision is the slain mortal form of Gunnhildr, and a ghost who talks very much as if it is only that specific person and not some amalgamated "spirit of the blade" primal.

You are correct that she has slit-pupil eyes when angered and drawing on the power of the blade, but she doesn't when it's just her. Likewise Misija has them in the moment that she sacrifices herself to the blade, but not afterwards in her "Gunnhildr incarnate" form where she seems to have specifically taken on the body of her Roegadyn ancestor.

Misija also reverts to her normal form after being defeated.


In any case, if they really wanted to take that opportunity to portray her taking on aspects of all the Hrothgar queens who were past Gunnhildrs, then surely you would achieve that by giving her actual feline features, and not some vaguely altered body shape that has no inhuman aspects? A suggestion of fur and pointed ears, if they don't want to go all the way into locking themselves into a design for the actual characters. At very least have those slit-pupils persist the whole time she is in that possessed form, which they do not.

Even if you don't think that bod means anything, we should all be able to agree that the mural depicts hrothgar as being shorter and thinner with narrower waist-n-shoulders and more feminine curves and that bod also is "thinner with narrower waist-n-shoulders and more feminine curves" than a FemRoe.
I don't personally think they would put that mural in the game if they weren't sure about them looking that way.

The mural Roegadyn seems to have the same spindly arms as the in-game Gunnhildr model.

The main differences I see are thinner waist and slightly more sloped shoulders (as would make sense for a cat build vs human).

I'm not even sure which way I'm trying to argue right now besides that I don't think you're interpreting the possession thing right.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

I tire of your strawman

What Strawman?

That mess called HB +
If you really don't care about asking them to be the least played thing in this game, cutting the appeal to the furry fandom at its knees, just so you can get the body type you want ... then I guess there's nothing for us to talk about. I don't really see the need to argue on behalf of common knowledge ... I think we all know what's considered conventionally attractive, regardless of personal taste.

- I laugh that you want to suddenly talk about Societies standards...in a Video game.
- The popularity shouldn't be a factor, its not going to appeal to everybody in the 1st place. This point is m00t
- Why is this a question? No duh. Did you forget this is a non-human Bi-Pedal Anthropomorphic Race?
- Furries for the most part dont care. They will gravitate towards the 1st Bi-Pedal Anthro race they see. Canines and Felines are guaranteed to catch the eye since these 2 animals humanity has grown with the most. (The charr could have been dragons...nope, big horned multi-eared Cats) . And if they have good customization options then they have a high rate of being picked. Not guaranteed because they might be more interested in another race. (My friends expected me to play Worgan....I played Troll.) But the body type is not often the 1st thing they look at.

This isn't about ME getting what I want. This is about the Devs putting in something different to expand upon options. My point has always been diversity. Not money, not popularity, not society or the Norm. Matter of fact, I want them to Challenge the norm and make it work. To not cower and be afraid to do something different because wah Fantasia sales, oh noe not everyone in the datacenter is playing them. They can easily make the FemRoe body work with some adjustments, just like they did with the Males.
Your common Knowledge argument is just an excuse to stunt creativity and to stop someone from trying. And reading this from somebody in the Furry Fandom hurts, because of all people Furries should understand Creativity and trying new things, they always wanna stand out, and here you are saying 'Keep it safe, just give them the same tiered boring Bodytypes we already have on 5 other races."
Because Common Knowledge & what's considered conventionally attractive

And naaah fam lmao, the fact you thought the Queen had a typical Femroe body because "I don't stare at body shapes" pretty much tells me we don't have the same eye for detail and taste. You can keep playing FemRoe though, more power to you if you like everything you wear. Power and respect to the fat wrist fam.

I Don't THINK its the same body...it IS the same body.
But your right, we dont have the same eye for detail....you think FemRoe have a fat wrist. And you have to try harder to make a 'strong' female character still look like a female.
And your only just now realizing we have different taste....like nobody saw that a mile away or the past few pages...lol

[reivaxe]

I'm not even sure which way I'm trying to argue right now besides that I don't think you're interpreting the possession thing right.

Seems your point hinges on thinking that this unique brand of primal summoning isn't affecting her appearance because of an inconsistency with how it's resolved post death, and that this is her natural-born appearance.
I clearly disagree, and think the mural depicts her as a Reg FemRoe. But w/e,

The main question and point of that for this topic should be, "why does she even have a unique body shape?". Yes, she simply has an outfit custom-made for Femroe as shown by data-miners. The only reason we're even talking about it is that she doesn't have a FemRoe shape.

If you think her body is actually representative of the mural FemRoe then you're basically saying that

Hrothgals would look like this shape

compared to this model (which would be the red).

And hey, I'm happy with the Queen's body, so I'm down with that to.

[FawkesWyznfarr]

I feel a lot of this debate would be solved if they expanded on the character creation to allow for different body types. But considering it's a monumental task to even add additional hairstyles or hats for the already existing genders, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Maybe in the far future, if we get another Dalamud to nuke the game and revamp the engine and/or clear the spaghetti code.

Nah we just gotta get a new director. Delay the expansion and update the godsdamned engine. Eliminate the technical debt before the mob comes and breaks his [REDACTED].