About damage essences in Delubrum/Dalriada

[Kaurhz]

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I don't mean to be that one guy; once again. But the reason people aren't listening to you is that you aren't really creating a good argument in the first place, and are just looking for an excuse in order to rationalize doing the absolute bare minimum to get by without having regard for yours, and most importantly other peoples' time. What I find really strange is the time that you've spent here arguing bad takes is time that you could have spent farming for essences.

You talk about not being good from the perspective of a farmer, but if we look at the average run in duty finder, this is approximately 45 minutes, and that is taking into account with some people actually using essences. Comparative to everyone using a modicum of offensive essences in addition to some support essences crunches that 45 minutes into an approximate run of 15 minutes. This means that you on average will save you approximately 1 minute and 20~ seconds per player on the essence, and again, these are average scenarios. The only reason these values aren't even a bigger disparity is that you actually have some individuals in a run that actually respect their own time and the time of other people in the instance.

Across the course of a whole relic, this turns out to be 30 minutes per run or 30*7.5 per relic. This means per relic the collective group will save approximately 200 minutes per relic, or 3 hours and 20 minutes. Across the course of all 17 relics, this turns out to be around 63 hours saved by respecting your own time and the time of other people. You are simply wrong on these bases.

If everyone were to go by your misapprehension then we'd be looking at a consistent minimum time of around 50-55 minutes. If this were the case, then even taking into account the buff, it'd be quicker for people to just do premade Palace of the Dead.

If you don't want to use essences for whatever reason then by all means go ahead, but don't try and justify it on the premise that you're playing efficiently when you clearly are doing anything but that. You just don't respect other peoples' time, simple as that.

[Mostly_Raxus]

If you queue up solo and run its threw the duty finder is perfectly acceptable to not use essences, but if you are queuing for party finder runs meant to be speed runs you are held to the standard of everyone else there and thats to use essences, you can make your own party for just casual clears, but don't expect to join someone else's party and not participate at the level asked of everyone else .

[Goji1639]

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You're making the cumulative gains argument again, but that doesn't work for DF. What happens if everyone uses essences is irrelevant because you can't control that. If you use an essence everyone else might not; if you don't use an essence everyone else still might; so you can't justify farming essences by saying "IF everyone used one you'd save x amount of time." I'm not controlling what everyone else does by using an essence; I'm only adding to my own output, which only adds up to roughly 30 seconds shaved off of any given run. Over the course of an entire relic you're only saving maybe 2-3 minutes, so if it takes longer than 3 minutes to farm enough essences for your relic then you're losing time. That's the reality of how it works.

Now if you want to say PF runs that require essences are more efficient you'd be right, but as far as DF is concerned farming essences will always be a loss of your time.

[Kaurhz]

You're making the cumulative gains argument again, but that doesn't work for DF. What happens if everyone uses essences is irrelevant because you can't control that. If you use an essence everyone else might not; so you can't justify farming essences by saying "if everyone used one you'd save x amount of time." I'm not controlling what everyone else does by using an essence; I'm only adding to my own output, which only adds up to roughly 30 seconds shaved off of any given run. Over the course of an entire relic you're only saving maybe 2-3 minutes, so if it takes longer than 3 minutes to farm enough essences for your relic then you're losing time. That's the reality of how it works.

Now if you want to say PF runs that require essences are more efficient you'd be right, but as far as DF is concerned farming essences will always be a loss of your time.

No, your individual effort accounts for approximately 1.2 minutes of any given run between whether you do or don't use an essence. Not this 30 seconds, or 24 seconds which you so joyfully baselessly ride around on.

Since you can't really see the perspective of this from a 'playing with other people and respecting their time' point of view - Let's look at it from a different perspective. Each run you use an essence shaves off around 1.2 minutes, across the course of an entire relic, this turns around to be 9 minutes, across the course of all 17 relics this turns out to be around 153 minutes of your time, and time shave off from everyone else. Just as a few little numbers. A decent bozjan cluster farm group will produce 150 fragments per hour, across 2 hours this amounts to 300 fragments. A cluster farm group playing optimally will produce upwards of 200 fragments per hour, or 400 in 2 hours. Needless to tell you these can be used or sold depending on your needs to buy more appropriate fragments if you're a healer or tank.

Now a little lesson, 2 hours still leaves you with 33 minutes to spare over not running with any essence. This doesn't even take in the cumulative gains argument which you so joyfully want to dismiss despite playing an MMO. So you still lose the argument on account of individuality perspective efficiency. - If you don't know how to farm fragments effectively then that is your own fault; you can't create an argument of efficiency or inefficiency when you've probably barely explored with the prospect otherwise. So yes, you still lose, sorry.

[Goji1639]

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Your individual contribution may be 1.2 minutes (your figure; no idea how you came up with it), but a Skirmisher essence (random example) only represents a 20% increase in your contribution. So, a Skirmisher essence would only increase your output by roughly 15 seconds, using your 1.2 minute figure. So, by popping a Skirmisher you've saved 15 seconds. If it took you longer than 15 seconds to farm that Skirmisher you've already lost time.

Now if you think the fact that you're contributing more is worth the negative time investment that's great, but it's NOT efficient. I agree your mentality is more group friendly, and may have other benefits beyond efficiency, but it is NOT more efficient.

Look, what I'm stating here is logistical, mathematical fact. I know you all want to be able to say I'm wrong because you want people to farm essences for DF, and the information I'm stating here is counterintuitive to that. You're all being dishonest, though. Just say "YES, it's less efficient but you should do it anyways because it's the more considerate thing to do." If you could do that I couldn't say you're wrong and we'd have some common ground to part ways on. You keep insisting it's more efficient in DF, though, and you're wrong about that.

[Nethereal]

Your individual contribution may be 1.2 minutes (your figure; no idea how you came up with it), but a Skirmisher essence (random example) only represents a 20% increase in your contribution. So, a Skirmisher essence would only increase your output by roughly 15 seconds, using your 1.2 minute figure. So, by popping a Skirmisher you've saved 15 seconds. If it took you longer than 15 seconds to farm that Skirmisher you've already lost time.

Now if you think the fact that you're contributing more is worth the negative time investment that's great, but it's NOT efficient. I agree your mentality is more group friendly, and may have other benefits beyond efficiency, but it is NOT more efficient.

Look, what I'm stating here is logistical, mathematical fact. I know you all want to be able to say I'm wrong because you want people to farm essences for DF, and the information I'm stating here is counterintuitive to that. You're all being dishonest, though. Just say "YES, it's less efficient but you should do it anyways because it's the more considerate thing to do." If you could do that I couldn't say you're wrong and we'd have some common ground to part ways on. You keep insisting it's more efficient in DF, though, and you're wrong about that.

What a strawman.

20% if you're a dps.
80% if you're a healer.
60% if you're a tank.

If you're going to use an example follow through with the category.

[Goji1639]

What a strawman.

20% if you're a dps.
80% if you're a healer.
60% if you're a tank.

If you're going to use an example follow through with the category.

The majority of people running DR run DPS so it's the most sensible standard to use, but even with tank and Healer it would likely work out to roughly the same.

The reason being that a Healers time contribution without an essence would be much less than a DPS, so 80% of "much less" than 1.2 minutes would still probably only equate to a 15-20 second savings of time per essence used.

[Kaurhz]

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It's easier to farm a pure essence than it is to farm awakening fragments or get the deep essences, so I will be basing mine on that. Like I said if you don't know how to farm fragments. I can get Finesse fragments a damn sight faster than I can Awakening, or fragments of Becoming for that matter. Not to mention I am getting both Fiendhunter and Dervish. This also applies to Forgotten Fragment of Contention and Clarity, giving Duelist/Elder, and Rend Armor, respectively. Not to mention even if you're tank you can still sell these farmed fragments to get the correct ones you want for either healer or tank, which arguably where you get the biggest potential benefits to damage dealt, which ironically happens to be a role of your stated main class.

I don't know where on earth you're pulling the math of saving roughly 15 seconds from a 1.2-minute figure when the 1.2-minute figure is the time I've highlighted that you typically save from use an essence over having no essence. So you can't just apply your baseless mathematics to this. It's not how it works. Please read my post in future.

Now fact you seem to be under the misapprehension that it isn't more efficient despite seeing a set of numbers more depth than your own baselessly made-up ones is truly mind-boggling. I agree my mentality is more group-friendly because I am playing an MMO wherein my actions have an impact on my own time, but additionally the time of those around me, so thank you for giving me credit on that one - Regardless I'm still going to disagree with you vehemently until you do a proper number breakdown aside from the baseless and made up numbers of 15 seconds, 24 seconds, or the most recent 30 seconds.

I'm not even sure we can call what you're doing Mathematics. It's just plain and simple pulling numbers and figures out of your head without any specified referencing point in order to try and justify your narrative of not wanting to use an essence. - Sure, don't use one, by all means, run wild, but don't try and justify it as making perfect sense in terms of efficiency, you won't win the argument here, ever.

I don't need to say you're wrong, quite honestly. Because you are in fact wrong, plain and simple, you're just too in denial to admit to your own flawed outlook on the matter, that's all it gets chalked down to. If you don't want to use essence or farm them, then once again, by all means, conform to this outlook, but don't try and justify it on some misapprehended outlook.

[Banriikku]

I am not a Math Wizard but your Math-fu is broken....
Okay lets be serious.

First you say 20 % dmage increase but you dropp the rest ? You get a crit chance increase of 15 %. Next is you are crit hitting and direct hitting sometimes even without the essence Bonus, then some bosses have a increased damage gain against certain damage types, essence interaction, Rotation, Job, etc.... with all that your Math is just incomplete and more or less a guess and has nothing to do with facts.

So you will say now but you dont have facts either !
Yes but as many people here explained we have a "prima facie evidence". Evidience that results from expierence and repeatet results. To put a simple "Esence use = faster runs".
I did runs with many people not using anything and perform at mechanics very poorly and the runs took 40 to 60 minutes, while on the other hand runs with many people using essences the runs were between 18 and 25 minutes. This leads to a conclusion based on expierence.

I am not sure but "Fact's" are rare and hard to provide because they are absolute cant be denied. So if you have facts then provide ? And dont tell me your "i am right, you are wrong" or "you are ignoring ..." or "12 seconds " because that are not facts.

[Goji1639]

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Here, I'll repeat the math I used to come up with my initial figure. To make it easily divisible we'll assume a 48 minute DR run where nobody used an essence. I'm 1/24th of that run so my contribution counts for roughly 2 minutes. A Skirmisher essence represents a 20% increase in my contribution, so that's 24 seconds. I've shaved 24 seconds by using a skirmisher. If I have to farm more than 24 seconds for that Skirmisher it's lost time.

Now please do share the math that's feeding into your numbers, and tell me exactly what is incorrect about my approximation.

I'm giving you all yet another chance to directly address the numbers and logic behind what I'm saying. I'm ready to watch you all avoid responding to me and instead just devolve into talking about how wrong I am to each other.

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Fair enough on the crit point, so exactly how much do you think that crit improves your damage? Even if it doubles it (btw, it doesn't, not even close) that's still only a 48 second savings. These are approximations, and no matter how you look at it a standard essence only equates to roughly, maybe a 30-40 second savings of time at best.