Lore Question in regards to the in-universe Dragoon Powers of our Warrior of Light.

[ICountFrom0]

If you take notice the two times you have Estinian in your party (well, once under your control, once in your party) he's actually FAR more powerful a dragoon compared to the hero of light. While the Hero of light has more options, multiple classes, and Estinian has only the dragoon soul, it's as if he took everything we spread out and focused it into one singular task. I think we'd have trouble in a 1 on 1 fight, until things were desperate and we called in reinforcements or hydalin.

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

If you take notice the two times you have Estinian in your party (well, once under your control, once in your party) he's actually FAR more powerful a dragoon compared to the hero of light. While the Hero of light has more options, multiple classes, and Estinian has only the dragoon soul, it's as if he took everything we spread out and focused it into one singular task. I think we'd have trouble in a 1 on 1 fight, until things were desperate and we called in reinforcements or hydalin.

Pre-Nidhogg he loses pretty soundly and when he tries to accept the Eye's power Haldrath's Spirit stops the deal with the devil.

Estinien is no slouch combat wise but, you can scale him relative to someone the WoL beat soundly that being Zenos. Who he admitted he would struggle to beat. (Only experience he had against Zenos was when Elidibus was piloting not the man himself)

Aside from the Warrior of Light he's definitely the strongest Scion though. Thancred can't wield aether anymore, G'raha isn't bonded to the crystal towers near-limitless reserves, and I doubt any spell Y'shtola can cast has the sheer destructive potency of Estinien's dives.

[Vyrerus]

Pre-Nidhogg he loses pretty soundly and when he tries to accept the Eye's power Haldrath's Spirit stops the deal with the devil.

Estinien is no slouch combat wise but, you can scale him relative to someone the WoL beat soundly that being Zenos. Who he admitted he would struggle to beat. (Only experience he had against Zenos was when Elidibus was piloting not the man himself)

Aside from the Warrior of Light he's definitely the strongest Scion though. Thancred can't wield aether anymore, G'raha isn't bonded to the crystal towers near-limitless reserves, and I doubt any spell Y'shtola can cast has the sheer destructive potency of Estinien's dives.

Huh? Estinien and Gaius fought Zenos right after he'd reclaimed his body.

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

Huh? Estinien and Gaius fought Zenos right after he'd reclaimed his body.

That was my bad on phrasing "Only SOLO Experience he had fighting Zenos*"

That's lowkey why I hope we get a rematch between the two in Endwalker. Zenos clearly has more crazy ascian magicks up his sleeve and Estinien didn't use his Nidhogg trance which we know he had at the time cause he fights Arch-Ultima right after. Both parties were sandbagging pretty hard and a real fight between the two would round out how the Azure Dragoon and the Imperial Prince kept missing each other by the slightest of margins and a full on duel never took place.

[ICountFrom0]

Pre-Nidhogg he loses pretty soundly and when he tries to accept the Eye's power Haldrath's Spirit stops the deal with the devil.

Estinien is no slouch combat wise but, you can scale him relative to someone the WoL beat soundly that being Zenos. Who he admitted he would struggle to beat. (Only experience he had against Zenos was when Elidibus was piloting not the man himself)

Aside from the Warrior of Light he's definitely the strongest Scion though. Thancred can't wield aether anymore, G'raha isn't bonded to the crystal towers near-limitless reserves, and I doubt any spell Y'shtola can cast has the sheer destructive potency of Estinien's dives.

Remember at that time Zenos was able to stop you with a single slash. Down for the count. You got more powerful, and so did Estinian. He can solo a weapon, and does. We won't be able to do that until at least level 95.

[Brightamethyst]

Remember at that time Zenos was able to stop you with a single slash. Down for the count. You got more powerful, and so did Estinian. He can solo a weapon, and does. We won't be able to do that until at least level 95.

Cutscene badassery vs actual gameplay is not an accurate comparison of strength. Nor are power up stories, for that matter. The WoL had to lose to Zenos the first time otherwise there'd be no buildup to the rematch. Even if the WoL was stronger they still would have lost for "reasons" simply because the script called for it.

We have no real way of knowing who would win in an actual, fair fight because the answer is always "whoever the writers pick."

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

Remember at that time Zenos was able to stop you with a single slash. Down for the count. You got more powerful, and so did Estinian. He can solo a weapon, and does. We won't be able to do that until at least level 95.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the WoL canonically has soloed weapons.

-Cinder Drift was you being tasked with crossing the Ghimlyt Dark and halting Ruby Weapon before it was going to wreak havoc on Eorzea
-The Cloud Deck was Gaius and Cid formulating a plan to Capture Diamond Weapon rather than destroy it.

In both instances WoL is in story fighting these solo but we have 8 people with us because of gameplay reasons. A case of Ludo narrative dissonance. The feat of destroying the trial weapons i'm willing to consider more impressive because they aren't just proto types but considered successors to Ultima Weapon.

The main argument I have against considering Estinien superior to Zenos/WoL is this:

Estinien when confronting Zenos says

"I've seen him in action. His body atleast. You will not best him alone"

-Zenos challenges both Estinien and Gaius and is soundly on top. He Blocks a dive with his new barrier and tanks a Dragonsong Dive head-on with out a scratch.

-Zenos cites that the pleasures of one's own flesh is amazing and Estinien comments "Whatever he is, Forename was barely a match for him. if we stay much longer-"

-The imperials make it to the throne room and see Varis dead and this is where the fight cuts short

Zenos lives for the hunt, lives for the joy of doing battle with strong opponents but describes the duo of "The Azure Dragoon" and "The Black Wolf" as middling. It doesn't come close to the majesty that was the battle atop the Royal Menagerie. At this point in the story Zenos has not encountered the WoL since StormBlood but even this form of Estinien pales in comparison to us during the Shinryu fight.

Therefore if the WoL at end of 4.0 is still the hunt Zenos measures everything else up to and Estinein+Gaius are average at best and since the writers are clearly building up the rivalry between us and Zenos we can make the argument

WoL = Zenos and both are greater than Estinien