Popular WoW content creator Bellular is praising FF14.

[OrigNN]

There is no weekly login bonus in WoW. XIV has a daily-grind in the form of daily roulettes; WoW does not.

Can we at least aim for some degree of accuracy in our comparisons?

I was talking about the weekly-IDs in WoW. A lot of players (including me a few years ago) only log in one or two times a week and do the raids and the mythic keys. That was the BIG endgame.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I was talking about the weekly-IDs in WoW. A lot of players (including me a few years ago) only log in one or two times a week and do the raids and the mythic keys. That was the BIG endgame.

Meanwhile i do 3 expert dungeons a week and then log off... RIVETING

[Puremallace]

Belluar just gave an absolutely brutal takedown on this topic on his main WoW focused channel. This is going to get someone's attention over at Blizzard and completely burn bridges he has with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-IsPdMOR8Y

[linayar]

I can see it both/either way(s), personally.

I think the whole "white knight" label is more a matter of (1) ratio of critique relative to the average involved and knowledgable player and (2) hindsight. If he covers released content that most people you run into would have some serious concerns about and, himself, has little to nothing he finds worthy of critique, or upcoming content that has warning bells ringing for half or so of players and yet for which he can only see clear skies on the horizon... yeah, relatively speaking, he's not going to be someone I, personally, am going to see much community value in, as his work at best attracts more players to the game, which indirectly decreases the need for quality, rather than much addressing those matters of quality themselves. If he then goes through some notable mental gymnastics or seemingly active neglect to defend or ignore certain problems, then I'd call him a white knight.

For me, Brian is right on the cusp of that.

Tonally, he meets most criteria for me, as even when he notes an issue he perceives, it tends to seem so blanketed over that there is no call to action or responsibility or anything else to make that criticism actionable or significant. In the strictest sense, though, he falls just short.

The essence of Worktogame is, initially, about balancing game and work life. And while Chris has transitioned to full time content creation, Brian still makes that balance in his life, not to mention his growing family.

As part of that, they traditionally don't do many contents in the game (although Chris is starting to branch out more). Their contents are mostly about guides for beginners and general news and such.

Where this "white knight" discussion is more relevant is when they post discussion topics, and having two of them, sometimes they disagree and sometimes they agree, and sometimes they agree with some nuanced differences. It's important to note that the interaction between the two is what makes Worktogame as they each have separate channels for them individually.

That said, given how they play the game, there is that caveat that they can acknowledge that some people have problems with certain aspects of the game without those problems being applicable to them.

And I really don't think actionable criticism is necessarily a responsibility of content creator, although they have made them, such as when it comes to community problems, like people gatekeeping others for not liking the story. Those types of problems have easier actionable criticisms, but as gamers, they can only express their desires without necessarily knowing how a game developer should design the game to meet those desires.

Also, depending on who you ask, they are known to have a negative channel even though they post many positive videos because they have also posted negative videos.

XIV has a daily-grind in the form of daily roulettes; WoW does not.

WoW does have random Normal and Heroic dungeon bonuses which are increased once daily, though you can spam them the rest of the day for less rewards. That said, many of WoW's grind seems to be in the open world where there are world quests and sometimes daily quests, though there are other instanced grinds as well.

[Shurrikhan]

And I really don't think actionable criticism is necessarily a responsibility of content creator, although they have made them, such as when it comes to community problems, like people gatekeeping others for not liking the story. Those types of problems have easier actionable criticisms, but as gamers, they can only express their desires without necessarily knowing how a game developer should design the game to meet those desires.

That's fair, and perhaps I misspoke. I mean actionable in the sense that they at least provide something to the discourse beyond adding a tally point to being on the side of "I think it's a problem" or "I don't think it's a problem". Perhaps I'm just being greedy or expecting too much here, but I rarely feel like Chris and Brian's discussions nudge discourse beyond its most basic (and often painfully reductive) soundbites.

WoW does have random Normal and Heroic dungeon bonuses which are increased once daily, though you can spam them the rest of the day for less rewards. That said, many of WoW's grind seems to be in the open world where there are world quests and sometimes daily quests, though there are other instanced grinds as well.

Those bonuses amount to about a third of a repair bill -- nothing more. They do not, as earlier implied, aid in gear progression and are by no means made a mandatory part of the game, unlike XIV's weekly currency caps. This expansion's "AP" currency amounts solely to vanities: mini-games, QoL transport systems, transmogs (glamours), minions, and pets.

Daily quests haven't been made since World Quests were introduced; one quite literally replaced the other. World Quests are not daily, but simply last for a time (usually ~3 days) before being replaced by another, or are weekly exchanged with the weekly reset (the weekly world boss WQs).

I was talking about the weekly-IDs in WoW. A lot of players (including me a few years ago) only log in one or two times a week and do the raids and the mythic keys. That was the BIG endgame.

Weekly IDs? Apart from the Great Vault added in SL (which offers you an extra choice of a single piece of loot for every 3/6/9 raid bosses beaten at a given difficulty level or 1/4/10 keystone dungeons completed at a given difficulty level), the only weekly elements have been soft-caps by which to deincentivize extreme AP grinding (no longer necessary, as AP now has nothing to do with gear progression) and your keystone being randomized and reduced by 1 key level with the weekly reset.

[linayar]

That's fair, and perhaps I misspoke. I mean actionable in the sense that they at least provide something to the discourse beyond adding a tally point to being on the side of "I think it's a problem" or "I don't think it's a problem". Perhaps I'm just being greedy or expecting too much here, but I rarely feel like Chris and Brian's discussions nudge discourse beyond its most basic (and often painfully reductive) soundbites.

I think it's about expectations. I personally don't see any content creator as being a source for discussion topics beyond simply about introducing the topics and making people aware of them. People can give their opinions on them, but that's no different than some random person making a post on reddit or the official forum, which is why I don't get the hate some people have toward content creators. Sometimes giving just the soundbites is enough to foster a discussion of your own whether in the comments section or in a thread, but that depends on people's level of participation in a discussion.

Those bonuses amount to about a third of a repair bill -- nothing more. They do not, as earlier implied, aid in gear progression and are by no means made a mandatory part of the game, unlike XIV's weekly currency caps. This expansion's "AP" currency amounts solely to vanities: mini-games, QoL transport systems, transmogs (glamours), minions, and pets.

Daily quests haven't been made since World Quests were introduced; one quite literally replaced the other. World Quests are not daily, but simply last for a time (usually ~3 days) before being replaced by another, or are weekly exchanged with the weekly reset (the weekly world boss WQs).

Perhaps, but when I played WoW in BfA, dungeon runs and world quests are my primary source for PVE gear progression as LFR does not give enough consistent gears, so I think those would be the equivalents to roulettes in FFXIV. That said, there are multiple ways of earning current tomestones in FFXIV that you're not bound to the daily roulette. Even then, 5 Expert runs a week is enough to cap for the week if roulette is the only method you want to choose.

[Shurrikhan]

I think it's about expectations. I personally don't see any content creator as being a source for discussion topics beyond simply about introducing the topics and making people aware of them. People can give their opinions on them, but that's no different than some random person making a post on reddit or the official forum, which is why I don't get the hate some people have toward content creators. Sometimes giving just the soundbites is enough to foster a discussion of your own whether in the comments section or in a thread, but that depends on people's level of participation in a discussion.

For me it's a matter of how prevalent those soundbites are. If you can scarcely play the game without being exposed to those soundbites, then they're not fostering any discussion by rehashing them verbatim. If they're literally the first comments to be seen on the official forums or on reddit/xiv, it's an incredibly minor benefit at best unless they take that at least some small step further. And, at least in the several vids I'd seen of WtG, I hadn't seen that effort taken. If anything, a simply link to the source would have done far more for the discourse than their many minutes "covering" it.

Perhaps, but when I played WoW in BfA, dungeon runs and world quests are my primary source for PVE gear progression as LFR does not give enough consistent gears...

Then, first off, you would be in the slight minority unless you're including Mythic dungeons (even just M0s) there. Dungeons cap out damn quick (they're meant to be outscaled within an hour or two of use after reaching level cap, and heroics just maybe 4 hours, at most, more) and the world quest loot at the time scaled with (and below) your current ilvl (alongside content patch catch-up mechanics or minimums), and thus would also hit a soft cap unless you're exposed to other, higher loot sources.

..., so I think those would be the equivalents to roulettes in FFXIV.

Again though, XIV's roulettes gives tomes, something useful to progression even as a Savage raider.

WoW's solely gave gold (or a potion, in effect, if you are an Adventurer in Need) once you reached the current expansion's level range (and even then they'd only give bonus gear to Adventurers in Need, and only for the most bottlenecked former expansions). It's damn near intellectually dishonest to imply that they held the same impact or necessity.

[linayar]

For me it's a matter of how prevalent those soundbites are. If you can scarcely play the game without being exposed to those soundbites, then they're not fostering any discussion by rehashing them verbatim. If they're literally the first comments to be seen on the official forums or on reddit/xiv, it's an incredibly minor benefit at best unless they take that at least some small step further. And, at least in the several vids I'd seen of WtG, I hadn't seen that effort taken. If anything, a simply link to the source would have done far more for the discourse than their many minutes "covering" it.

Maybe, but people work differently. A lot of news videos, for example, work because some people prefer to listen/watch rather than read on them. Sure, if you're consuming multiple venues of communications, some of it starts to become redundant, but not everyone does, and if someone thinks a topic is important enough, they can provide additional coverage to it.

Then, first off, you would be in the slight minority unless you're including Mythic dungeons (even just M0s) there. Dungeons cap out damn quick (they're meant to be outscaled within an hour or two of use after reaching level cap, and heroics just maybe 4 hours, at most, more) and the world quest loot at the time scaled with (and below) your current ilvl (alongside content patch catch-up mechanics or minimums), and thus would also hit a soft cap unless you're exposed to other, higher loot sources.


Again though, XIV's roulettes gives tomes, something useful to progression even as a Savage raider.

WoW's solely gave gold (or a potion, in effect, if you are an Adventurer in Need) once you reached the current expansion's level range (and even then they'd only give bonus gear to Adventurers in Need, and only for the most bottlenecked former expansions). It's damn near intellectually dishonest to imply that they held the same impact or necessity.

Minority or not, I feel there is enough of the player base that would fit my situations as I don't see a difference in queues between roulettes and heroic dungeons, for example.

It is less a statement that they have the same impact to endgame content as whole in the respective games, but more of an equivalent choice of gaming experience. I don't do pre-made group contents in general in each game, and those would be the equivalent offerings to me.

[Y2K21]

Belluar just gave an absolutely brutal takedown on this topic on his main WoW focused channel. This is going to get someone's attention over at Blizzard and completely burn bridges he has with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-IsPdMOR8Y

Isnt he only level 18? Bro, I know you want clicks Bellular -- but atleast finish the game before you try to do things like this man.

[Raelsar]

Belluar just gave an absolutely brutal takedown on this topic on his main WoW focused channel. This is going to get someone's attention over at Blizzard and completely burn bridges he has with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-IsPdMOR8Y

To be perfectly honest, pretty much every single complaint in the video are the same ones I had for WoW... about two years ago.

It's likely due to my lack of interest in high-end content like raiding and mythic+ dungeons in WoW, in no small part because the community feels like it's ready to explode at a drop of a hat and the extreme focus on optimization, I grew tired of the chronic issues with WoW's design pretty early on during BfA. In retrospect, after I was "done" with the Mage Tower during the tail end of Legion... that was probably the last time I had legitimate fun playing WoW, doing the silly solo challenges. I'm guessing Bellular was able to hold out longer simply due to having an interest in that high-end activity with a team of people he enjoyed playing with, but even then it was just a matter of time.

For better or for worse, FFXIV is acting as the catalyst for a lot of the outrage surrounding WoW... and I think the big part of that is coming out of WoW's woes and the (lead) developers getting too comfortable with the game's success. FFXIV isn't actively trying to pull those players away (well, hasn't been for the most part), it's just there as an example of a high-quality MMORPG and players are looking back at WoW and wondering why it has fallen so far. Every so often, the grass actually is greener on the other side; perhaps it's not for everyone, but the numbers are starting to add up. WoW's constant faltering appears to be reaching a tipping point, FFXIV appears to be reaching "critical mass", queue times for FFXIV appear to be getting longer... there's a shift happening, and it's in FFXIV's favour.

That out of the way, the description of FFXIV players (especially those who would be former/current WoW players) being "evangelistic" is pretty true in retrospect... I've certainly been guilty of it at times. Nevertheless, it's because those players believe in the game and are wanting others to have a similar experience. It also tends to provides many opportunities to hammer away at built-up grievances towards WoW, many of which are valid; the big difference is that they're often finding a perfect counterpoint in FFXIV which is showing them exactly why WoW is a less enjoyable if not frustrating experience now.

At the end of the day, these players still want WoW to improve. It's not about which game is "better".
Really, who wouldn't want to have two MMORPGs worth enjoying rather than just one?