6.0 Story Speculations

[KageTokage]

With Krile suggesting that there might be someone who's actively preventing Hydaelyn from contacting us, as well as the Sharlayans very obviously keeping some secrets they don't want us knowing about, it wouldn't surprise me if they were the ones responsible; perhaps out of fears that her guidance would inevitably lead us to them and possibly bring change and/or disaster with it.

The fact that it happened not long after we brought a revolution to Ishgard seems a touch conveniently timed.

I really, really cannot express how much I hope you do not get this and I am very thankful we most likely will not.

Look, I get what you're saying, but this game cannot do solo duties that are worth half a cent. It's impossible, if they made a good solo duty, half the players of this game would not be able to complete it and we'd get endless complaints from people who never bothered learning how to play the game.

IMO, solo duties should be avoided at all costs.

They implemented an easy mode for a reason, and I haven't seen anyone complaining about difficulty of solo fights since then aside from the odd occasion where people are horribly undergeared.

They can do solo fights that are actually engaging and fairly intense (IE, the Bozja duels and a lot of Masked Carnivale fights), but they don't need to be insanely punishing like some of the mentioned are.

[Katie_Kitty]

With Krile suggesting that there might be someone who's actively preventing Hydaelyn from contacting us, as well as the Sharlayans very obviously keeping some secrets they don't want us knowing about, it wouldn't surprise me if they were the ones responsible; perhaps out of fears that her guidance would inevitably lead us to them and possibly bring change and/or disaster with it.

The fact that it happened not long after we brought a revolution to Ishgard seems a touch conveniently timed.



They implemented an easy mode for a reason, and I haven't seen anyone complaining about difficulty of solo fights since then aside from the odd occasion where people are horribly undergeared.

They can do solo fights that are actually engaging and fairly intense (IE, the Bozja duels and a lot of Masked Carnivale fights), but they don't need to be insanely punishing like some of the mentioned are.

I mean, the only people complaining about solo duty difficulty now are the people for who even very very very very easy is too difficult, so that's no surprise.

it's still super naive (and completely flies in the face of everything we've seen from this game since release) to believe a solo duty final battle would be anything but incredibly disappointing.

[RyuDragnier]

it's still super naive (and completely flies in the face of everything we've seen from this game since release) to believe a solo duty final battle would be anything but incredibly disappointing.

*looks at the 5.55 solo instance*
Are you POSITIVE a solo duty would be incredibly disappointing?

[BlitzAceRush]

*looks at the 5.55 solo instance*
Are you POSITIVE a solo duty would be incredibly disappointing?

Not just that, but I don't feel challenging is the only measure of something being epic or grand, Thordan and the Knights of the Round was a grand spectacle and felt epic, despite the fight itself being a joke and it was an 8 man. The fight against Sadu back during Stormblood was also very memorable and to some challenging and it's a solo duty.
The dev team have shown they can do both, they can do spectacle and they can do challenge, they can do well put together solo duties like the Bozja dules and Sadu and 5.55 and they can do easy but special driven 8 man fights, like Thordan and a fair few of the normal modes.
There's no reason we couldn't get a great group trial and then an epic solo instance or the reverse.

[Lauront]

With 5.55 out the way, I am going to put together my thoughts. I’ll be basing this on a few points, one of which may pan out to be incorrect, but so be it. X and CC/CT stuff so for those who want to avoid any spoilers about those, be forewarned.

5.55 across different localisations...

This is a reference compiling some of the key dialogue for the EN and FR versions, and we have this for the Japanese.

So, the French version does look like it confirms that the aim was to destroy the aethereal nodes, maybe because the damage it would cause would create a wound in a very aether-rich area, that would leak out aether that could then be diverted to Garlemald.

This “dreamer” is something separate to Zenos. Moreover, the Gateway of the Gods appears to tie to their plan to capture their prey – presumably Zodiark (based on 5.1 dialogue between Fandaniel and Zenos), and perhaps without even having to set foot on the moon. The Japanese, as translated, refers to a wish, but if one ties this to 5.1 and Fandaniel’s expressed aim, the French construction is reasonable.

Prior references to controlling “You know what” tied into the empire finally proving useful for something according to Zenos. The way these dreams drain the planet is suggestive of a primal or some similar type of entity – primal would make sense in the event that the towers are tempering through the energy frequency they’re “broadcasting”. Again, possibly one constructed based on Zenos’s noticeably clear dreams of the Final Days.

Also, looking at how it’s phrased in the Japanese version, I think I see now why the German and French versions confused the comments about rage for being Zenos’s, rather than the WoL’s.

Regarding “Venat”, the wording “Your star” is different to the EN, but I guess not all that peculiar given her aims, although that star is named “Hydaelyn”. The fact that she is manifesting as the aethereal currents grow weaker, and as Fandaniel readies his plan to drain yet more aether, no doubt all ties together. I do wonder if it’s a recording left to play in an emergency situation, because it’s not the first time Hydaelyn has communicated via these (her spoken message being the other), but given that she appears on the art too in flesh, I lean towards a no.

To the more speculative part…

https://twitter.com/NipuniPlays/stat...707102214?s=20

Assuming the above is correct – the lyrics correspond quite closely to what we’re seeing play out. Sight of the ancient world in dreams, while we have a city with a very Amaurotine look, floating in the air. They had said it is similar to Il Mheg during the Fanfest, and more specifically, it calls to mind Lyhe Mheg, which is where the mind of children wander to when dreaming, but also where they can be trapped in nightmares, which can then spread – and eventually die. Hence, these visions might be something closer to a Venus fly trap.

The Final Days of Amaurot, after all, originated with a keening sound from beneath the earth that precipitated loss of control over creation magicks and also a sense of dread and panick – sundered life forms lack the ability to manifest their fears through creation magicks, so an extrinsic aid is logical.

Now, it mentions the heart of a crystal. We know each Primal had one, but Zodiark has lost his, and even in the Amano art, he still lacks one on his chest (contrast this to the mural art.) One possibility is that it means Zenos/Fandaniel. Another is that it could be referencing Hydaelyn’s heart. Although it’s an admittedly tenuous possibility, another possible inspiration for Venat as a name is Venant, in turn a name for Regulus A, incorporated within the Leo constellation (and we all know who Leo is.)

Parallels with X

X references that come to mind – the whole concept of Sin has some commonalities with Zodiark, with Yu Yevon and the many willing people of the city who became fayth summoning a form of salvation, becoming the core of the first Sin; I believe there is a difference, though, in that Elidibus was able to remain in place as the core, to the point that he could withdraw himself to go assist in the conflict raging on the world itself, and obviously Zodiark did not fabricate a dream world but repaired the existing laws of reality. Rather, what went wrong was the dispute between each side about the restoration of the sacrificed sleeping within Zodiark (I posted about that here.) However, it is entirely possible that Zodiark, dormant as he is now with many souls slumbering inside him, has created some manner of dream Amaurot inside him.

Although I do not think the conflict really touched on the Sound, it is possible that once Hydaelyn and Zodiark unified and she enervated him to create some manner of balance/new order, the sound re-emerged, and this is when Zodiark, lacking his core, was taken over. There’s parallels between Venat’s act of fight with Zodiark and Lady Yunalesca and her battle with Sin, leading to her death, and in Venat’s case, the Sundering.

As well as the visual parallel with the pyreflies, and also Lady Yunalesca’s hair and body, and Hydaelyn’s in the Amano art. There is a similarity here between how, once a Final Aeon defeats Sin, it simply becomes it, with Yu Yevon possessing it, so to me Sin is also comparable to the Sound itself potentially, assuming it can take over whichever Primal defeats it – maybe a coreless one. With Zenos’s plan to draw on Zodiark’s power for his “ultimate” fight, and embodying many of the cardinal sins, there is that too.

I also think Lady Yunalesca has similarities in her genuine conviction with both sides of tempered – the Ascians and the restoration of the ancient world, and Hydaelyn and her summoners’ belief that the world had to be ceded to the newer life forms, and I hope/expect that will re-surface with Venat later on should the theme of remembrance come up, since as per Elidibus’s epilogue, she and her summoner’s both intended for memory of the ancient world to fade.
My hope is that they stick to their word of this being a conflict of two perspectives, and the way they have kept Azem withdrawn from either side, and don’t just have it conveniently be the case that they last minute sided with her, and that there was a good reason as to why Azem did not. Possibly even balking at the sheer scale of the conflict and abdicating their responsibilities, leading to a worse overall conclusion than if they had stepped in; something along these lines. I still reckon Elidibus, who was close to Azem, being chosen as the one to be the heart weighed heavily on them, much like Yuna’s potential demise as summoner did on Tidus. As with Tidus, will Venat may be gone once her own singular purpose is fulfilled? Or, as Yunalesca, will she consider it a fight that cannot be ended in that way?

There is also a parallel with Yuna and defying Lady Yunalesca, and Venat’s “put a break on this future”, but where I believe they differ is that, as with XII’s Venat and CT’s Schala, this led to unintended (? In Venat’s case) consequences – i.e. the Sundering, lending her a more tragic aspect.

I see more of Yuna in the MC, especially with how events between 5.0 and 5.3 have re-shaped their perception of the whole conflict of light and dark, with the conclusion, IMO, being that they will be the hand by which to end this conflict, much as with the Dragonsong War, with which there are many parallels. Plus her conviction that she could rout Sin even without the Final Summoning. And with Braska there’s some similarities to what we see in Azem, from what little we know of them, mostly based on Ere our Curtain Falls and Hythlodaeus’s dialogue in 5.3.

With Seymour, there’s a bit of him in both Zenos and Fandaniel. His obsession with the WOL/D (Seymour’s infatuation with Yuna, as well as protecting her from Sin, mirroring what may happen in EW), the sense of loneliness (in Zenos’, his desire to become Sin, the patricide of Jyscal (a stern father like Varis, who – one could say rightly - viewed his son as an abomination), these remind me of Zenos.

I see Vayne, Sephiroth and Seymour in Zenos, and Kuja, Kefka and Seymour in Fandaniel.

His nihilistic stance (“Your hope ends here! And your meaningless existence with it!”) on the other hand, reminds me of Fandaniel – his defiant attitude to his masters (the three unsundered) and nihilistic attitude also are reminiscent of Kuja and Garland from FFIX. Not to mention, we’ve no real idea what his role was in the ancient world, since he may well not even be the original incumbent of his seat. Venat’s vanishing from the world is similar to Seymour’s mother’s, as well, so in addition to the nominal XII connection, perhaps there is another.

You could easily see Seymour Omnis as a basis for Zenos drawing on one of the two Primals:



And the Mortibody as his travelling companion, should he have one as a Reaper.

The whole build up, with Thancred remarking on the point soon being reached where we’ll see the end of primals, Zenos’s desired big fight drawing on the two primals and the possibility of reckoning with what caused the Final Days, all have parallels to the Final Summoning.

Meanwhile, Garlemald has some elements of (ancient) Bevelle to it, like Vegnanun, an indiscriminate weapon much like the Black Rose. You also see elements of it in their history of being persecuted, due to an inability to manipulate aether, leading them to focus on mechanical ingenuity, similarly to the Al Bhed. But I think we may also see aspects of its later incarnation in Sharlayan, with its rigid orthodoxy, and possibly its belief it is acting in the way either the gods it follows (similarly to how Yunalesca played along because Yevon’s philosophy aligned with her own), or what it knows of Amaurot, would consider desirable. Things seen as well through the faith of Yevon. Sharlayan is, in some ways, a twist on Amaurot’s ideals and method of governance, taking a much more isolationist stance, compared to that ancient city, which sought to be an example for others to emulate and which guided the rest of the star. As a city, it also engineered an entrance to the equivalent of the Farplane, the Aetherial Sea, via the Antitower.

The symbol of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, similar in nature to Yu Yevon’s sigil, shown in that order:





The centre resembles Azem’s soul crystal (the symbol recurs a lot) and, with a bit of rearranging of the Archon sigil, we can see the sides the wings of the two eldest primals.

With Zanarkand, we have this similarity to the Convocation and its offices: “Summoners took the name of a "god" and once they died or became an unsent, they gave up that name, reverting to their original name with another succeeding the god's name.”

Lastly, with Yoshi drawing attention to the number of times Hydaelyn has spoken to the MC, and that being a focal point of 5.5 part 1 (where Y’shtola asked about direct contact), it leads me to think they may be referencing it from a Chambers of Fayth pilgrimage angle, especially since the upcoming expansion may well spell the end of Primal summoning, as well as the final arc in the battle between Hydaelyn and Zodiark.

Dreamer…

I have to say, the whole reference to the dreamer does also bring to mind the Cthulhu mythos and the Great Old Ones, who themselves communicated with the first humans through moulding their dreams, maybe with a few traits of the Chthonians mixed in, themselves beings that made chanting sounds. Then you have the sunken city of R’lyeh, where the Great Old Ones remain intact but in stasis; although I think Zealaurot is drawn from a mixture of references, I am sort of hoping for some inspiration from R’lyeh. Or in Bloodborne, where the character lives out the nightmare of an unborn Great One, via the Hunter’s Dream… Zenos and Fandaniel’s many references to the hunt and hunting add to that.

The way Zenos speaks of the “dreamer” does suggest an affinity to it, so I can see why it’s been suggested Zenos himself is a dream of the true cause of the Final Days. It’d parallel Jecht’s own story, as he became Sin. I’ve touched on what I think he is in the past and continue to think it’s what he may turn out to be.

Credit to the folks at LoreLines for this reversed sigil of Zalera and some of the other points to do with Anima (and also the floating isles.) You can see in that an outline not much different to Anima. That, coupled with Hades’s own intimate tie to Amaurot, his exhortations of the shades of his fallen brethren to dream of the restored Amaurot (his own great desire, its destruction the cause of much of his grief), his abundant creation magicks and his exhorting the shades he created to dream of the future they wished to reclaim, all point to him being a good basis for Anima. Anima is also withdrawn out of an underworld.



There’s the difficulty of how they’d even retrieve his soul from the Lifestream without some exceptional know-how, plus unresolved mysteries, like why Zenos has such clear dreams of the Final Days (which in theory should be accessible to someone minded to spawn something capable of broadcasting them further), and how they will use the Solus clones, if ever, so if it’s not actual Hades, there is certainly a way to create a synthetic basis for Anima off of his essence.

So maybe this is more Zalera than Hades and something created out of the “tools” available to the Telophoroi duo – Anima herself in X was created out of her fayth’s dreams, after all. The fact that Solus is Zenos’s blood relative and that Anima was referred to as male, is similar IMO to how Seymour and Anima in X related to one another (plus there’s this tidbit: Seymour's mother had shoulder-length dark hair lightly threaded with gray).)

I still consider that the upper body is most similar to Zodiark, particularly as depicted in the Amano art. Zodiark himself is dormant, although with him being their intended prey, it’d be rather odd for him to at the same time provide the means to reach him, when that is their unfulfilled objective, but perhaps it is his dreams that give rise to Zealaurot. He looks like a fit for what inspired the upper part. With Solus (clone) as a base, we have the essence of the Empire itself in primal form. With Zalera being the Death Seraph, and the Reaper companion's proclivity to occasionally merge with the Reaper, that then could be an aesthetic Zenos inherits from it.

There is also the possibility it is based on Varis (who wished for Garleans to be freed of the curse in their genes), or lord Nerva (if, like Zenos, he also has memories of the Final Days implanted), or something else entirely, but I’m not as sold on that.

Then there is Lavos - also a screecher creature. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re going to do an adaptation of that (especially with some of the parallels between the Day of Lavos and the Final Days), combined with themes from X, as well as some of the Cthulhu mythos. Going back to Yu Yevon, he has a bug-like appearance. Besides that, it shares a lot of themes with Omega, but also IV: The After Years’s Creator, but what is most striking about it is its unique appearance and subterranean emergence. He also managed to survive his defeat through a possible banishment to the Darkness Beyond Time, merging later with princess Schala. As an aside, the below is intriguing when compared to the Pleroma (itself sharing in the spiral, shell like design):





While I don’t think they’d go as far as repeating the Frozen Flame arc (not least of all because the sundered lives are still sundered ancients , some as far as 9/14ths restored, so it'd raise implications for them too), I do think there is potential to draw on him, as he even had a Dream Devourer form, that fed on things such as dreams, across time; Enhasa, located in Zeal, was a city of dreams. I also think Schala’s role would fit Venat if they wanted to avoid giving her too overtly an antagonistic a role. One can take the Mammon Machine (Mammon meaning sin in Hebrew apparently, FWIW) and the Ocean Palace incident as loose analogies to Zodiark and the Sundering, depending on whether it was intended, or not.

Again, the way this negative filter on the Amano art for 6.0 brings it in line with the colours of the Final Days, plus the emergence of something above (the hairs resembling fiery tentacles by that point), as well as the possibility of any such battle taking place in the Aetherial Sea itself, is a rather compelling imagery.



Also reminds me of this image collection, relating to the Frozen Flame. Shell design being notable...

Some other things – this description of Black Omen, while not a 1:1 analogy, does remind me of the trailer scene where Zenos oversees the destruction the Final Days is precipitating:

Upon the throne of the Omen is Zeal, fully corrupted by the power of Lavos and the Queen over this nightmare. She reigns atop the Black Omen, whose top deck provides a stunning vista of the planet below and the moon. Upon her defeat, the Black Omen seems to de-materialize, and the party is taken to fight Lavos.

Secondly, there is Gaspar:

Gaspar passed his time by sleeping beneath the center lamp post with a humorous, prominent snot bubble always present. Throughout the adventure, he told the party (among other things) where to find the Epoch, the Clone, and what to do with a few Key Items. He also presented the finished Chrono Trigger to the party after Crono perished, at which point he was revealed to the group to be the old Guru of Time. While Gaspar is painted as a reminiscent old codger with a tired spirit, he does exhibit wry humor at times and shows caring emotion when he mourns Crono's death and delivers the song Crono & Marle ~ Far Off Promise.

Not too different to a nostalgic and sometimes cranky Ascian that followed the group around in SHB.

There is the matter of what this “Gateway of the gods” is. We know the Twelve will be touched on separately, and with the floating isles with the Amaurotine-styled architecture we’ve seen as yet a mystery, it might be that they connect. The isles seem to map over to Azys Lla reasonably well for at least part of it – Azys Lla being a phenomenon Emet may have had a hand in.






Xaela legends mentioned an outlander being involved, and we know Emperor Solus conceived of his mission to eradicate primals based on the Burn and was involved in both the Allagan and Garlean Empires, the former of which raised Azys Lla up. In fact, I wonder if this is what Fandaniel was trying to release all that aether for. Incidentally, the auri creation myth of the Dawn Father and Dusk Mother reminds me a lot of the feud between the two eldest of primals.

In turn, I believe the islands may tie into those floating above Garlemald in its world map, and be similar in nature to something like Dream Zanarkand. Possibly accessible after vanquishing Anima.

On the other hand, it might be to do with something Fandaniel intends to release/invoke once he has the aether he requires, obtained from Zodiark. The tower itself could be what all the energy is being channelled into and what will be the foundation for what they intend to summon. Here there may be some IV coming in, mainly if the Tower – clearly, of Garlean design - is similar to the Tower of Babil and burrows all the way into the Aetherial Sea, with an interior aesthetic much like the Iifa tree and a soul cage (Anima?) at the bottom of it, ready to feed on the Aetherial Sea. The towers apparently appear very quickly.

Lucavi etc.

One theory I put forth a while ago, which I still like, is the notion that the Convocation (referencing for the most part Olympian gods) supplanted an older order of god-like beings, in particular due to the naming of Therion (final boss of Amaurot), the Chthonic Riddle, which symbolically can be taken as succession of the Olympian gods over the Titans. A suggestion I’ve seen, given that they are named after Scions of Light, is their corresponding Scions of Darkness, which we know in their Lucavi forms from Ivalice content. After all, the Occuria did strike down the Espers rebelling against them, binding them with glyphs, so perhaps the Convocation seats and their elaborate sigils had a similar history. Whatever the case, we know Ultima is supposedly summoned from another dimension – so perhaps if this is the case, this is wherever the original Convocation trapped this ancient order of beings?

Looking at Ultima’s traits, with the power to “unfurl the threads of Creation”, and the fact that Zodiark had to weave the laws of reality anew, I wonder if what Ultima represents is some manner of Terminus beast, or spreading beacon, kind of like a Lightwarden.



Either way, with either a beastie like Lavos (or Jenova) or some older order of beings which were supplanted, you also have the potential for an otherworldly origin story. We’ve had just one limited potential reference to IX so far – the resemblance of Fandaniel’s dungeon to the Iifa tree’s interiors, but I hope the two orbs touching on Hydaelyn’s sceptre indicate some kind of plotline in that direction.

I’ve seen speculation as to whether the ancients originate from the star, or whether they hailed from another. Sharlayan’s plans (according to the non-EN versions) give them the confidence that even if the star perishes, they will live on (literally or in a dream world?), and Labyrinthos looks a lot like a training ground for survival in a journey to leave the world. Mayhap the ancients did so, much like the dragons, long, long ago.

Closing thoughts

Well, those are my thoughts on it all so far, going into 6.0. Might look into Tactics Advance as well since I’ve been wanting to play it and it also touches on a dream world, as well as a couple of other games. I am keen to see where the story is going, and whether it will keep me interested enough to remain after 6.0’s conclusion, when a lot of the plot points I care for will be resolved. Depending on how they do it, it would give an indication of future storytelling style. Although all the aforementioned points regarding the Chrono series, IV and IX are just some parallels I see, rather than me expecting them to just copy/paste directly into XIV, integrating it and doing something novel with it could result in a very memorable story.

The storytelling style and themes of the XII and XIII universes are ones I prefer over X, and there is always the possibility that I find the way they resolve the H/Z arc unsatisfactory, particularly with regard to the ancients, as they have continuously stressed this is a clash of perspectives rather than good/evil or one side being wrong to the exclusion of the other, so it’s easy to drop the ball there, but we shall see how it goes.

[Vyrerus]

Lots of neat stuff

Just some information on Chrono Trigger/other stuff you touched upon

So, in the original JP for Chrono Trigger, the Kingdom of Zeal isn't just studying dreams at Enhasa. They are actually reaching into dreams and making them into a physical reality. Masa(Gran) and Mune(Leon) are actually dream creatures brought to life, along with their sister Doreen. In order to exist in the physical world they have to have a physical binding, and this was achieved by binding them to the Royal Family's Red Rock. In this case, they were bound to the Masamune (Granleon). It's never told what Doreen is bound by, though it is speculated due to the events involving Serge and the Masamune in Chrono Cross that she is bound to the Astral Amulet(Schala's Pendant). This was done by Melchior, Guru of Life. He also built the Mammon Machine.

As far as the Black Omen goes... its name is a localization choice. I feel like I've ranted on this before, but its actual name in JP is, "The Black Dream." If we want to get alliterative it sounds better to me as, "Dark Dream."

The Mammon Machine was also a localization choice by the brilliant Ted Woolsey. It's actually the 魔神器 or "Demon Vessel" or "Magic Vessel" though Google translate says that it translates to, "Genie." It is made from Dreamstone. It was created to draw out the power of Lavos, and bestow it upon humans, enriching their magical power. Melchior tells you that the more power they draw with, the further into madness the Queen Zeal seemed to slip. Not unlike how eldritch horrors drive their cultists to madness.

The Ocean Palace which they take it to, in order to form a more direct link with it absorbing Lavos's power is actually the Ocean Floor Vimana, which is a Hindu Temple, tower like in its structure. Worth noting that though the palace doesn't look like that, you do descend from its top to the bottom. Not that you do that with an actual Vimana, but hey, it is tower like.

One of the Zeal citizens slumbering in Enhasa says in English something about herbal tea. In Japanese he says something like, "Within dreams lies another reality. Within me, another universe."

Another Zealite says, only in Japanese, "At times, human prayer and desire borrow the power of Lavos-sama and materialize." She has a line before that, "Beings born of dreams exist."