Parsers add replayability for casual players

[VelKallor]

That is the thing at least from my from my view if you are part of the group your performance by default should be open to criticism

If by "criticism" you mean public shaming, name calling, abuse, screamed epithets, no thanks. Thats how WOW uses it, thats how it will be used here, it WILL be abused and misused. Badly.

I defy you to prove me wrong.

Though I do understand why some would be against such a thing or view it as a means of being intolerant.

The less than stellar example of how it is abused in WOW has already shown us just how badly it can be used to publically humiliate others.

As you said sure this game does have a large insecure base I will grant that

If by insecure you mean behaviour that that person would NEVER DARE say to a persons face, you mean. I have eight years of experience, others have decades of valid cases where a parser has been used as a weapon by cowards who feel they can use the anonymity of the internet to behave in a manner that outside the game would result in an immediate arrest.

In a workplace? That kind of behaviour almost always results in termination and immediate ejection..example, had a manager who was prone to fits of rage, and went off his nut on some small matter. In less than three minutes he was fired and escorted FORCIBLY out of the building.

A lot of this predicates that people wont listen to advice or you cant tel them how to play..I counter that by saying I have mentored and helped a lot of players..then again, it has a lot to do with how you approach them in the first place. Might be a good place to start.

Though I will say by in large that insecurity is based around this fear of being held accountable by a group standard

What you call insecurity I call a persons right to not be subjected to harassment.

[VelKallor]

If that’s true why do the more popular FFXIV twitch streamers parse and get away with it for years?

They dont.

Arthars got banned for it.

Here is the argument against parsers, short, simple, to the point and 100% accurate.

If it can be abused, misused, distorted, used as a weapon.

It will be.

You left out the most important part of DPS meters which is a MAJOR negative strike against them. They are also used by some players to cyber-bully,demean & embarrass lesser skilled players. This kind of behavior & any tool that facilitates it has no place in an online game

[Awha]

If by "criticism" you mean public shaming, name calling, abuse, screamed epithets, no thanks. Thats how WOW uses it, thats how it will be used here, it WILL be abused and misused. Badly.

I defy you to prove me wrong.



The less than stellar example of how it is abused in WOW has already shown us just how badly it can be used to publically humiliate others.



If by insecure you mean behaviour that that person would NEVER DARE say to a persons face, you mean. I have eight years of experience, others have decades of valid cases where a parser has been used as a weapon by cowards who feel they can use the anonymity of the internet to behave in a manner that outside the game would result in an immediate arrest.



What you call insecurity I call a persons right to not be subjected to harassment.

To be fair I cannot prove you wrong cause to do that SE would have to make parsing openly allowed across the board. Which we all know will never happen, I will say I wish they would release the numbers regarding how many actionable parsing related harassment tickets they get just for curiosity sake. Though I have admitted it will be misused that will not change, though as you can use your many years of experience in MMO's I can also use my own and I am sorry but I honestly do think if we weighed every negative experience against the positive or neutral experiences with parsing the latter would be overall larger. I do understand that the negative experiences one faces tend to having a more lasting impact on a person though I do largely think that people in general are overselling how bad parsing has made other games like WoW. I was part of the community and I played niche class and I was a horrible player at the start, and I can honestly say most my experiences with parsing fall under the neutral category. I had my bad experiences, one of which that lead me down the path to get into hardcore raiding.

I am sorry I do honestly think if people really looked deep down and recall all their time playing games with parsing generally I am willing to bet that for the most part their experiences would also fall under the neutral category. One thing I will say on a personal level I have never said anything to a person in a video game I would not say to another person in real life, and I have said some pretty messed up shit. Though that is just the the type of person I am I really do not have much of a filter and for the most part rather let people know exactly where they stand with me. Though I do get where you are coming from as I said my position leads to what most people would view as intolerant. I just do not think telling someone they are doing less damage then a tank or healer should be seen as harassment if we have objective data point to show it. Though I do get why people are against such a thing.

They dont.

Arthars got banned for it.

Did not get banned for parsing, he got banned for his comments leading to a witch hunt against another player, even though the player in question did egg on Arthars while in stream and in their group. SE does turn a blind eye to streamers that use ACT. I do not recall which one it was but I do believe in a tweet where they congratulated a world first kill ACT was visible in the screen shot they tweeted. Though I also do not agree with this stance, I do wish SE did not have this gray area when it comes to enforcement of the ToS.

[VelKallor]

I had my bad experiences, one of which that lead me down the path to get into hardcore raiding.

i did my time in hardcore raiding years ago. The environment, the massive imbalance between good raid leaders and those on ego trips coupled with a sewer for a mouth was another reason. I can count on the fingers of ONE HAND the number of raid leaders and guild leaders who did not use dps meters as a blunt instrument to beat people over the head with, cheat them out of gear or other items, and as noted, resort to behaviour and language that they would NEVER DARE use in public.

It is open to widespread abuse. THAT is the key reason it never will be in the game.

You can comment all you like on the perceived or believed "validity" of such meters, those of us with a large amount of experience already know full well where that road leads.

I do understand that the negative experiences one faces tend to having a more lasting impact on a person though I do largely think that people in general are overselling how bad parsing has made other games like WoW.

Awha: if anything, i was UNDERSTATING my experiences. The real truth cant be posted here for obvious reasons.

As for Arthars

Final Fantasy XIV suspends a streamer for shaming another player live on his stream. ... Case in point: The streamer Arthars was suspended from the game on a stream due to harassing another player due to damage numbers

[Awha]

i did my time in hardcore raiding years ago. The environment, the massive imbalance between good raid leaders and those on ego trips coupled with a sewer for a mouth was another reason. I can count on the fingers of ONE HAND the number of raid leaders and guild leaders who did not use dps meters as a blunt instrument to beat people over the head with, cheat them out of gear or other items, and as noted, resort to behaviour and language that they would NEVER DARE use in public.

It is open to widespread abuse. THAT is the key reason it never will be in the game.

You can comment all you like on the perceived or believed "validity" of such meters, those of us with a large amount of experience already know full well where that road leads.



Awha: if anything, i was UNDERSTATING my experiences. The real truth cant be posted here for obvious reasons.

As for Arthars

As mentioned his comments were regarding his damage numbers. The act of parsing itself was not what got him banned. His comments regarding their play which was brought on by the player egging him on and talking trash so he called him out which did lead to a witch hunt against the player. I was watching the stream when it did happen. Do not get me wrong what he said was harsh but it was the boiling point.

I was also in hardcore raiding and can count on one hand how my raid leaders I ran into that used parsing as you mentioned. Yes I did have raid leaders that did award loot based off role and performance and I guess depending on who you ask that could be seen as using it as a weapon. Though when you sre part of the team such things should be considered when it comes to distributing loot since especially early on you want to make sure you are getting the value out of the item to make each kill progressively easier.
You see this can go both ways. Trust me I understand you have had a negative experience with them and they leave a sour taste in your mouth. I am sorry I still think maybe for you it was different though for most people if they had the ability to catalog each of their encounters with parsing most probably would fall in the neutral category where nothing of note happened. Though sadly we really do not have this ability so we can only really recall the ones that leave some impact on us, which for the most part would be the negative ones. Overall I get you why you have a strong disdain for the tool, in the end I still fall into the camp that your beef is less with the tool and more so how people use it. Though we already have tools in place fo combat such issues as your point with Arthars tool itself is not what got him banned but was more so how they used the tool.

I cannot comment on the language part since I really do not care if someone uses foul language or anything like that does not personally bother me though once again I can understand why that may bother you if that type of thing irks you. Though I do largely think the way information is conveyed is irrelevant personally. I just care about the accuracy or the reason for the comments not what was said. So I also cannot speak for how people may word things cause none of that really bothers me either. Like when I was told to kill myself for playing like shit back in my early WoW days.

So I do get my experience differs greatly from many since from what I can see I generally do have a higher tolerance for such things then most so even my view has a degree of bias I will openly admit that. Though I am sorry if I still think that overall people are overstating the negative encounters they had with parsing.

[VelKallor]

I cannot comment on the language part since I really do not care if someone uses foul language or anything like that does not personally bother me though once again I can understand why that may bother you if that type of thing irks you.

Id say it would irk almost everyone,. No one talks to me like that, not in person, not elsewhere.

Where do you get this idea anyone has a right to hurl abuse anytime they feel like it, and the other person needs just sit there and take it?

No they dont and I dont. Ever. I had a friend who did that to me once. I disowned him. Had someone do that to me ingame. Blacklisted forever. If you cant get your message across without resorting to foul language or abuse, then dont talk to me at all.

Though I do largely think the way information is conveyed is irrelevant personally

You have a lot to learn about how to effectively communicate then.

[Rinhi]

Ever. I had a friend who did that to me once. I disowned him. Had someone do that to me ingame. Blacklisted forever. If you cant get your message across without resorting to foul language or abuse, then dont talk to me at all.

You have a lot to learn about how to effectively communicate then.

So do you if that's your immediate response, breaking friendships if someone uses some no no words with/at you
Maybe they were going through hard times and accidentally vented their frustrations out, the first response shouldn't be disowning them for that... unless you're lacking in empathy

[WoW]

Did not get banned for parsing, he got banned for his comments leading to a witch hunt against another player, even though the player in question did egg on Arthars while in stream and in their group. SE does turn a blind eye to streamers that use ACT. I do not recall which one it was but I do believe in a tweet where they congratulated a world first kill ACT was visible in the screen shot they tweeted.

Don't bother arguing with them, fellow hair acquaintance. They are blinded by casual rage and emotion. Arthars after the ban was still using ACT but hid the names of the players when pugging. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that ACT wasn't the cause of the ban.

[ForteNightshade]

If by "criticism" you mean public shaming, name calling, abuse, screamed epithets, no thanks. Thats how WOW uses it, thats how it will be used here, it WILL be abused and misused. Badly.

I defy you to prove me wrong.

Challenge accepted.

Everything you cited remains against the ToS. Therefore, any player doing such should find themselves quickly banned if GMs do their jobs. I won't deny the initial month or so would be a "rough patch" as morons take things to unnecessary extremes. However, you could make the argument giving these people the rope to hang themselves only benefits the community since we'd be ridding the community of a toxic player. Furthermore, people this prone to toxicity will find other ways to get around the rules. Not to mention, both the strict "don't tell" policy and lack of a parse ironically leads to toxic casual behavior. Many players know they can't be called out or criticised for lackluster damage so they'll take advantage of that. Bit of a double standard this is viewed as okay while the mere idea of publicly allowing parsers is seem as opening Pandora's box.

We also need to define "harassment". Some people take being told their damage is low or that due to said low damage they're being repped as harassment. Which it simply isn't.

[VelKallor]

So do you if that's your immediate response, breaking friendships if someone uses some no no words with/at you

If you cant, or wont, understand why I would want nothing to do with such a person, no amount of explanation will ever suffice.

Maybe they were going through hard times and accidentally vented their frustrations out, the first response shouldn't be disowning them for that... unless you're lacking in empathy

I do not tolerate that kind of abuse. From anyone. Ever, and quite frankly I am astounded that you think I , or anyone else for that matter, should do so either.