Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[KizuyaKatogami]

I was under the impression that Minfilia just paralyzed him so that he could hear her out. He changed his attitude because she said "yeah Hydaelyn understands where you're coming from and she hears you and I'm going to help you" when the whole time, he thought Hydaelyn abandoned his world.

Another thing is that we already have proof in ARR that we ourselves are not tempered. Ifrit himself says something along the lines that he "cannot smell the taint of another" on us when attempting to temper us after one of his own tempered suggests that we're tempered by someone else. If we were indeed tempered by a being more powerful than he, you would think he would be able to notice.

Anyways. In the end I don't think people are going to stop arguing over whether Zodiark and Hydaelyn are evil, even after Endwalker. Ultimately, they are just complex programs following the rules by which they were designed for. Regardless of what you the player thinks though, our character's role in the game is to protect the world and in that perspective, Zodiark is the barrier to that goal. His supporters (and some users in this forum) do not feel that the life on our planet is equal and we're just resources to be used to make everything go back to the way it was before. If our character agreed and helped, then the game would be over. I think a lot of good vs evil media is poorly written and that has us conditioned to think that anything that has a good writing is "grey". A well-written villain has a reason for doing the things they are doing, but I don't necessarily think that makes their reasons OK.

He doesn't really accept what she says though.
https://youtu.be/O81y_dJ1mWg?t=2997

[MikkoAkure]

He doesn't really accept what she says though.
https://youtu.be/O81y_dJ1mWg?t=2997

The part where he accepts it was cut off by the clip you posted.
https://youtu.be/AyzX8eoiDA0?t=490

also in regards to ifrit, he actually claims we've been claimed by another.

Wrong.
https://imgur.com/a/04b8i8G

That bit of dialogue was actually changed from 1.0 to 2.0. In the original, he did smell influence by another, but that was removed in 2.0.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The part where he accepts it was cut off by the clip you posted.
https://youtu.be/AyzX8eoiDA0?t=490


Wrong.
https://imgur.com/a/04b8i8G

That bit of dialogue was actually changed from 1.0 to 2.0. In the original, he did smell influence by another, but that was removed in 2.0.

He does calm down after yes, but the point is what’s she saying. That they must serve her will in the same way that the Ascians serve Zodiark. In regards to Ifrit you’re right in that he doesn’t say it and it was changed. However, this is with reference to the MC before the blessing went full blast.The thing is not all tempering is the same, so it’s hard to speculate on it.

[thegreatonemal]

Where does it say Zodiark asked his tempered followers to supply more aether? To my knowledge that isn’t said anywhere. Also Hydaelyn wasn’t summoned to protect the life of the world. Her sole purpose was created to keep Zodiark in check. They emphasize this with Venat where it isn’t even so much the sacrifices that bother her, but Zodiark’s power. In the Tales of the Shadows short story, they even say it wasn’t just the tempered people who were agreeing about restoring their loved ones, but untempered as well.

The reason why they summoned her was because they valued that life and didn't think it should be sacrificed. Feelings at the time of summoning are imprinted on a primal so yes she would want to protect life on this planet. It explains why she also isn't taking aether from life on this planet. Instead she took it from the dragon flying by looking for a place to stay.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The reason why they summoned her was because they valued that life and didn't think it should be sacrificed. Feelings at the time of summoning are imprinted on a primal so yes she would want to protect life on this planet. It explains why she also isn't taking aether from life on this planet. Instead she took it from the dragon flying by looking for a place to stay.

Right then. So their belief is that the world belongs to the new life. The question is why, which i’m hoping we get an answer to in 6.0.

[Theodric]

I'd also note that it is outright stated that Venat's group feared Zodiark's power. Which suggests that something may have gone awry based on that fear if it was imprinted onto Hydaelyn as well.

[EaraGrace]

I actually think she does temper people. If you look at the cutscene where the warriors of darkness meet with the Minfilia. Ardbert attemtps to cut her down, she stops him with a touch and a blue glow. Every primal tempering we have seen has generally been with a blue glow. After this touch Ardbert turns from enraged to placid, he is suddenly motionless for a moment as if confused.

It is easy to miss because Minfilia starts talking, but it certainly on a second look seems very out of character for Ardbert. So much so that i truly think he was tempered at this point. Essentially i think Hydealyn uses WOL to achive a goal and then casts them aside. Thats assuming she actually creates them, rather then just wakes them up and then claims to have "blessed" them.

If a tempering did occur then that would’ve been Minfilia doing so, as she was by all means in control of her decisions.

I do not believe for a second he was tempered. Ardbert only relented after Minfilia explained that Hydaelyn knew of their plight. And even still, he only full acquiesced once his companions pointed out that they weren’t going to succeed at their original plan. The blue glow was there for longer than her talking and yet he was inches from cleaning her in two.

Not to mention none of this would make sense both thematically and in the story. A plot device like that would thoroughly undermine not just one but several characters arcs as well as a major part of the Shadowbringers story.

To say nothing of the fact that the blueprints for summoning Zodiark were not likely to be common knowledge, thus it raises the question as to how Venat came to piece together the ritual to bring forth Hydaelyn.

The “ritual” was earlier established in Akadaemia Anyder with the summoning of Phoenix, which was the original inspiration for a soul based summoning. Given the Ancients penchant for sharing information among themselves (the ones who summoned Zodiark told them much) and the respect and sway Venat clearly had, it isn’t at all surprising they knew. Hell, the Ancients probably never conceived there’d be conflict in their ranks, so why bother being secretive?

[_Koneko_]

division in the ancients was suppose to be rare according elidibus and always fleeting but not this time venat and the azem clearly felt that the convocation had lost their way I'm reminded of the timelords who started as a good and noble people who became twisted by desperation

sacrificing half your people to power a abomination like a primal is not the acts of a rational people the cycle of sacrifice will never end as we know the existence a primal will eventually drain the planet dry just by existing

[TaleraRistain]

Given we just had an expansion that showed us you can't always trust the pretty ones, I'm not sure he's evil either.

Though they were both summoned by groups that didn't really give a fig about the world itself. The Convocation in general didn't interfere in the outside world and what was happening in other nations. Only Azem did. Whatever the Convocation decided to do is suspect on how good or evil it was.

I'm not convinced we aren't tempered since I think Azem had more to do with past events than we think. Would be convenient for Hydaelyn to temper someone who could be a threat to her.

[Katie_Kitty]

The new life created is the aether that Zodiark needed to “revive” the lost population. Also, if Hydaelyn wasn’t created to protect that life, why does she make Warriors of Light for non-ascian related threats like Ivalice’s Ultima? Also, if she was solely created to check Zodiark, it would’ve been infinitely easier for her to temper people to her will, which she has refused to do, but Zodiark has done.

Of course untempered people would want to see their loved ones again. The whole point of Venat’s rebellion was “but at what cost?”.

Also, I’m not sure what part about a god being summoned by your leaders who then tempers them to its will and converts 3/4 of your population into aether isn’t scary. This is just conjecture in my part, but the fact that Hydaelyn is so pro-free will tells me that the tempering was a part of Venat’s decision as well.

yeaaaah I don't get the zodiark fanboys either.

I mean, let's be real for a moment. The ancients heard a scary sound and suddenly they couldn't even control their own power, and it led to their own downfall. Because they heard a scary sound. Remember that? I know the assumption is that it was a willful act by a malicious being, but we actually don't know that. It could be that the ancients, as "perfect" as they were, were incredibly unfit for the power they held and that they completely caused their own destruction even before zodiark became a thing. If the people themselves, so incapable of controlling their own emotions and the creation magicks that ran amok as a result, couldn't be trusted as they were then the sundering is not only logical but necessary.