Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[SturmChurro]

The comic link was meant as a light hearted joke. The point was and is that you should ideally communicate and work with a healer to ensure the tanking part of the dungeon goes smoothly.. as opposed to pulling too much, overtaxing the healer, seeing half your party dead and going: ''*shrug* I did my job, it wasn't me.'' Because quite clearly.. if half the party is dead.. something went wrong and you're most certainly not automatically exempt just because your experience is that it normally goes well.

I know. I put an emoji. A player can be banned for it though! Seriously.

It is pretty obvious.. it's the other players not capable of contributing for large pulls. Could be choosing to not play at an adequate level, or being inexperienced. The specific reasons for a wipe on a pull is: Adds are taking forever to die, due to low DPS/little to no AOE usage. The healer can't keep up due to the length of pulls, healer is simply inexperienced, undergeared player(s), player dying in avoidable damage, etc. None of it my fault.

Eh, come to think of it, I don't really feel like maintaining this argument. Already had it several times in the TfDF thread. I've been a little hyperbolic here this morning, I'll admit. Still, large pulls really aren't that daunting, if you have a group of players playing at even a adequate level. I'll pull small if I need to, I just prefer not to, but wipes do make a duty last longer than pulling small. Usually...

[KizuyaKatogami]

Being able to handle wall to wall pulls is like, the minimum you can do as a dps,tank, or healer. That really is not asking for all that much. Again that requires knowing your job which i would hope people would know by stormblood/shadowbringers and even heavensward honestly but i know some jobs can kind of change drastically in that transition so i’m a bit lenient.

[KizuyaKatogami]

And so? Why is that a cause for concern? Perhaps they're new players, perhaps they forget the Titania mechanics, perhaps they're just simply not at their best moment at the time. It's not like you can always expect to be paired up with top-notch players or those in perfect conditions every time you use DF in FFXIV anyways. It is a game played by millions, after all.

If the performance on some in the current group offends you so, just exit them; no need to make a huge fuss or immediately assume the worst of your fellow players that they are some degenerate losers who couldn't compute one plus one is two. Like I said before in this thread, please have some empathy towards your fellow players when you play the game, that is not such a hard thing to do.

Is just simply being in a group that wipe in Titania enough to lament the impossibility of FFXIV's community's ability to compete and catch up with your God-Like Skills(tm)?

Putting a lot of words in my mouth sheesh. Never said anything about them being degenerate losers, learn to read. My point is that i’ve been in more than my fair share of Titania runs where i’ve sat in there for 30 minutes only for the party to disband because dps don’t know their jobs or rotations and fail to complete the dps check.As for people "forgetting the mechanics" thats not even the problem in most cases. I've had runs where no one gets hit by anything but even without having weakness theyre unable to clear the dps check lmao. It's level 73 content, people should be properly geared and should know their job. I had a smn once in there in his IL 290 ARTIFACT WEAPON.Ridiculous when the game literally gives you a damn weapon coffer at the start of the expansion. But really, please check yourself and putting words in other people’s mouths. It’s petty.

[Rinhi]

Putting a lot of words in my mouth sheesh. Never said anything about them being degenerate losers, learn to read. My point is that i’ve been in more than my fair share of Titania runs where i’ve sat in there for 30 minutes only for the party to disband because dps don’t know their jobs or rotations and fail to complete the dps check.As for people "forgetting the mechanics" thats not even the problem in most cases. I've had runs where no one gets hit by anything but even without having weakness theyre unable to clear the dps check lmao. It's level 73 content, people should be properly geared and should know their job. I had a smn once in there in his IL 290 ARTIFACT WEAPON.Ridiculous when the game literally gives you a damn weapon coffer at the start of the expansion. But really, please check yourself and putting words in other people’s mouths. It’s petty.

when friends and I decided to freestyle SAM and mage DRK that fight and we ended up being the top DPS it showed us just how bad people could be
only one person was new to this duty and they did well, too

[LaughingBanana]

Putting a lot of words in my mouth sheesh. Never said anything about them being degenerate losers, learn to read. My point is that i’ve been in more than my fair share of Titania runs where i’ve sat in there for 30 minutes only for the party to disband because dps don’t know their jobs or rotations and fail to complete the dps check.As for people "forgetting the mechanics" thats not even the problem in most cases. I've had runs where no one gets hit by anything but even without having weakness theyre unable to clear the dps check lmao. It's level 73 content, people should be properly geared and should know their job. I had a smn once in there in his IL 290 ARTIFACT WEAPON.Ridiculous when the game literally gives you a damn weapon coffer at the start of the expansion. But really, please check yourself and putting words in other people’s mouths. It’s petty.

That losers part is not specifically aimed at you, but rather generally at those who more often than not consider people that perform sub optimally as "beneath" them or some such.

Also, let's all cut to the chase here, and speak directly about more practical terms: what should be done to satisfy those of you who feel that community is more strongly leaning towards the incapable? What's your solution? Tiered duty finder? All df duties turned to ranked, maybe, so only people in rank a can play together with others at rank a? Automatic setting to immediately kick those who died during a df duty? An automatic setting to immediately disband a party in case of a wipe? A setting where those who died can't get loot? A result popup in the end of a df content that ranks who does the most damage, heals, etc what?

What is the solution and action that you guys actually want to be implemented?

[Awha]

Honestly remove the five minute timer for kicking someone would go pretty far. Though as a trade off make it so three people are required for removal before the the 5 min mark. Then after the 5 min mark it goes back to the standard rules as they are now.

Though in truth SE really does not have to do much of anything since we have tools to handle such issues.

[linayar]

Honestly remove the five minute timer for kicking someone would go pretty far. Though as a trade off make it so three people are required for removal before the the 5 min mark. Then after the 5 min mark it goes back to the standard rules as they are now.

What I would like is to treat pre-made group as one vote and you cannot vote to kick the people in your pre-made group.

Example:

You queue with two friends.

If a vote kick is issued for one of you, the other two don't get to vote.

If a vote kick is issued for someone else, and two of you vote "no" while one of you votes "yes", the vote for all three of you is counted as one vote representing the majority, which is "no" in this case.

If your group has even number of people and there is no majority vote, then the vote defaults to "no" for your group.

Finally, a vote kick can only be initiated if there are at least 3 different groups of voters. If there are exactly 3 groups, then the vote must be unanimous from the other two groups in order to pass.

If there are only two groups or less, then the only option available is vote to abandon.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

Please don’t be one of those people that’s just calls anyone who doesn’t want to enable bad play an “elitist”. I’ve looked at op’s posts, they haven’t said anything that i really disagree with or anything i’d label as elitist.

Then you're not reading between the lines. There are many small thinks that hint towards most of this just OP being elitist and angry at the 'rabble' - amongst them would be their repeat phrasing of underperforming players as 'leeches' and 'parasites', their advocacy for DF tiering and automatic kicking of their hated underperforming players. Their insistence that they're 'average, not even that good' when their numbers paint an entirely different matter -- 99s, >75s. Their assertion that they're being 'taken advantage of' by the 'great community' and that '50% of people in DF are bad'.

All of that point to their expectations being set too high for Duty Finder of all places - a place where you should expect people of all skill levels to exist. And 'all skill levels' is not just 'good' but can also include 'bad' - and strongly hate being saddled by those who underperform, immediately assuming the worst of these people. Ergo, an elitist.

The amount of hours you have to put into the game just to hit level 80 is significant. If by then someone hasn’t looked at a guide for their job or taken some time to learn their rotation, that’s called being lazy and extremely inconsiderate.

People knowing that guides exist by the time they hit 80 is not a guarantee. Some people end up consulting the wrong guides or misunderstand them. Someone I know misunderstood a SAM guide badly back in stormblood, and it took someone who actually knows SAM to sit down and set them straight on that. My friends and the people I help out in NN get guides thrown at them all the time but not everyone is in NN, or is in an NN that bothers, or has friends who know resouces and give them. People who run solo, those who have super busy lives or aren't exactly long-time gamers (and even some of) might not even think guides exist.

I’m genuinely tired of seeing people enable this and be extremely sensitive to any ounce of criticism or help people give and seeing people blindly defend that. It’s ridiculous and it’s going to ruin the game in the long run.

Game seems alright so far. Also it's not so much enabling as it is tolerating because reasonable people would at least try to understand that, hey, people might have issues some of which are not under their control.

And honestly, most duty finder runs I've done for the past year have been mostly average. And of my problem runs, most of the 'problem people' have been receptive to help with actual nightmare scenarios so few and insignificant I've mostly forgotten about them.

This quote below is something I strongly agree with.

Nah, most likely it's just because most sane people would not lose their mind over something as trivial as playing DF content in 15 minutes instead of 12.

And... this please.

What I would like is to treat pre-made group as one vote and you cannot vote to kick the people in your pre-made group.

Example:

You queue with two friends.

If a vote kick is issued for one of you, the other two don't get to vote.

If a vote kick is issued for someone else, and two of you vote "no" while one of you votes "yes", the vote for all three of you is counted as one vote representing the majority, which is "no" in this case.

If your group has even number of people and there is no majority vote, then the vote defaults to "no" for your group.

Finally, a vote kick can only be initiated if there are at least 3 different groups of voters. If there are exactly 3 groups, then the vote must be unanimous from the other two groups in order to pass.

If there are only two groups or less, then the only option available is vote to abandon.

et-

large pulls really aren't that daunting

For reasonably experienced players. There's this little bump you have to get past, and one of my recent aurum vale runs refreshed this point in my head. Sprout was new, scared and cautious of mob pulls after a pull in the initial room went awry, and I (and one other) had to coach them a bit about the dungeon. They continued to be scared and cautious, but they otherwise took to advice exceptionally well.

The fear is real, especially when some dungeons might hit harder than expected, and others not as hard as expected.

[Nethereal]

If a vote kick is issued for someone else, and two of you vote "no" while one of you votes "yes", the vote for all three of you is counted as one vote representing the majority, which is "no" in this case.


If your group has even number of people and there is no majority vote, then the vote defaults to "no" for your group.

Finally, a vote kick can only be initiated if there are at least 3 different groups of voters. If there are exactly 3 groups, then the vote must be unanimous from the other two groups in order to pass.

If there are only two groups or less, then the only option available is vote to abandon.

Hard disagree a single troll should not have hold over an entire group.

The only thing this would do is make trolls more rampant and make people less likely to queue roulettes without a full premade.

[Awha]

What I would like is to treat pre-made group as one vote and you cannot vote to kick the people in your pre-made group.

Example:

You queue with two friends.

If a vote kick is issued for one of you, the other two don't get to vote.

If a vote kick is issued for someone else, and two of you vote "no" while one of you votes "yes", the vote for all three of you is counted as one vote representing the majority, which is "no" in this case.

If your group has even number of people and there is no majority vote, then the vote defaults to "no" for your group.

Finally, a vote kick can only be initiated if there are at least 3 different groups of voters. If there are exactly 3 groups, then the vote must be unanimous from the other two groups in order to pass.

If there are only two groups or less, then the only option available is vote to abandon.

Tbh if they had a vote system like this I probably would just do full premade groups and most likely no longer help friends with pops and stuff if it is a duo. Granted for the most part now we mostly run in house groups anyways either through our discord, ls, or FC.

Though I will say your system would put an end to so called vote kick abuse. Though I personally do not see how not wanting to play with someone is abuse and making it harder for people to remove those they do not wish to play with. Though I get the intent of your system.

Then you're not reading between the lines. There are many small thinks that hint towards most of this just OP being elitist and angry at the 'rabble' - amongst them would be their repeat phrasing of underperforming players as 'leeches' and 'parasites', their advocacy for DF tiering and automatic kicking of their hated underperforming players. Their insistence that they're 'average, not even that good' when their numbers paint an entirely different matter -- 99s, >75s. Their assertion that they're being 'taken advantage of' by the 'great community' and that '50% of people in DF are bad'.

All of that point to their expectations being set too high for Duty Finder of all places - a place where you should expect people of all skill levels to exist. And 'all skill levels' is not just 'good' but can also include 'bad' - and strongly hate being saddled by those who underperform, immediately assuming the worst of these people. Ergo, an elitist.



People knowing that guides exist by the time they hit 80 is not a guarantee. Some people end up consulting the wrong guides or misunderstand them. Someone I know misunderstood a SAM guide badly back in stormblood, and it took someone who actually knows SAM to sit down and set them straight on that. My friends and the people I help out in NN get guides thrown at them all the time but not everyone is in NN, or is in an NN that bothers, or has friends who know resouces and give them. People who run solo, those who have super busy lives or aren't exactly long-time gamers (and even some of) might not even think guides exist.



Game seems alright so far. Also it's not so much enabling as it is tolerating because reasonable people would at least try to understand that, hey, people might have issues some of which are not under their control.

And honestly, most duty finder runs I've done for the past year have been mostly average. And of my problem runs, most of the 'problem people' have been receptive to help with actual nightmare scenarios so few and insignificant I've mostly forgotten about them.

This quote below is something I strongly agree with.



And... this please.



et-



For reasonably experienced players. There's this little bump you have to get past, and one of my recent aurum vale runs refreshed this point in my head. Sprout was new, scared and cautious of mob pulls after a pull in the initial room went awry, and I (and one other) had to coach them a bit about the dungeon. They continued to be scared and cautious, but they otherwise took to advice exceptionally well.

The fear is real, especially when some dungeons might hit harder than expected, and others not as hard as expected.

Going to get shit for this but I am one if those players that thinks if a tank is scared they should not be a tank.

I had an AV recently with a new tank, mans asked for small or large pulls. I told them to hold W till they cannot go forward. Mad lad did it and it was a blast. Tanks should have no fear. :P

Granted I will say that a newbie healer probably would have had a hard time healing that. Thankfully our dps was on point cause truthfully healing a tank through a few packs and the first boss was not as easy as I thought it would be. Been a hot min since I was last in AV not on a blu.