Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[KizuyaKatogami]

Nah, most likely it's just because most sane people would not lose their mind over something as trivial as playing DF content in 15 minutes instead of 12.

Meanwhile we have people wiping on titania unable to clear because they can’t dps properly oops.

[linayar]

Meanwhile we have people wiping on titania unable to clear because they can’t dps properly oops.

Those are the runs that make Titania more memorable than, say, Cape Westwind. I feel accomplished if I can clear Titania after several attempts, bonus point if people didn't leave and we finished with the original members.

Last night I had to make several attempts on O12N for my raid roulette, unfortunately one of the tank left and then we one-shot it with a new tank even though I don't think the tanking was the main problem. Still a cool experience for me even though it's an old fight I've done many times, even tanked several times.

[LaughingBanana]

Those are the runs that make Titania more memorable than, say, Cape Westwind. I feel accomplished if I can clear Titania after several attempts, bonus point if people didn't leave and we finished with the original members.

Precisely. Why always assume the worst of people?

[LaughingBanana]

Meanwhile we have people wiping on titania unable to clear because they can’t dps properly oops.

And so? Why is that a cause for concern? Perhaps they're new players, perhaps they forget the Titania mechanics, perhaps they're just simply not at their best moment at the time. It's not like you can always expect to be paired up with top-notch players or those in perfect conditions every time you use DF in FFXIV anyways. It is a game played by millions, after all.

If the performance on some in the current group offends you so, just exit them; no need to make a huge fuss or immediately assume the worst of your fellow players that they are some degenerate losers who couldn't compute one plus one is two. Like I said before in this thread, please have some empathy towards your fellow players when you play the game, that is not such a hard thing to do.

Is just simply being in a group that wipe in Titania enough to lament the impossibility of FFXIV's community's ability to compete and catch up with your God-Like Skills(tm)?

[Jijifli]

Is just simply being in a group that wipe in Titania enough to lament the impossibility of FFXIV's community's ability to compete and catch up with your God-Like Skills(tm)?

Well it's enough to frustrate me when the reason for wiping is the gladiator (not paladin) who refuses to take ads and blames the (at the moment) new guy dps who's going through for his first time.

Which is exactly what happened to a friend of mine, who was trying to catch up back in late 5.3 to do stuff with me. Said that really put him out of the moment, as the player was pulling so fast to avoid being kicked, and then intentionally played so poorly that it was causing us to get stuck.

Which in lies the problem. Not people that are bad because they are new or returning, but players that are bad intentionally, because they refuse to play the game at all. I don't care if you didn't know to pick up specific ads your first time on titania, because that would be someone's first time on titania. I do care if you refuse to do so, knowing full well you're meant to, because you just choose to be crap.

I will state it: Playing like crap intentionally is not a playstyle, it's not an excuse, and it should be a reportable offense at any sign that it is the case.

[LaughingBanana]

Well it's enough to frustrate me when the reason for wiping is the gladiator (not paladin) who refuses to take ads and blames the (at the moment) new guy dps who's going through for his first time.

Which is exactly what happened to a friend of mine, who was trying to catch up back in late 5.3 to do stuff with me. Said that really put him out of the moment, as the player was pulling so fast to avoid being kicked, and then intentionally played so poorly that it was causing us to get stuck.

Which in lies the problem. Not people that are bad because they are new or returning, but players that are bad intentionally, because they refuse to play the game at all. I don't care if you didn't know to pick up specific ads your first time on titania, because that would be someone's first time on titania. I do care if you refuse to do so, knowing full well you're meant to, because you just choose to be crap.

I will state it: Playing like crap intentionally is not a playstyle, it's not an excuse, and it should be a reportable offense at any sign that it is the case.

Well of course if such a thing happened or if I encounter such a deliberate troll I would be angry too. That is a far cry from people not intentionally doing bad and cause wipes or make DF runs 5-6 minutes longer.

[linayar]

Playing like crap intentionally is not a playstyle, it's not an excuse, and it should be a reportable offense at any sign that it is the case.

And who's to be the judge of that? What if they weren't doing it intentionally or what if your definition is different than theirs?

The vote kick/vote abandon system is there for issues that do not need to escalate to the GM's attention. Sure, there is a rule against obstruction of play, but I doubt what is meant by that rule covers what you seem to think it should.

[Jijifli]

And who's to be the judge of that? What if they weren't doing it intentionally or what if your definition is different than theirs?

The vote kick/vote abandon system is there for issues that do not need to escalate to the GM's attention. Sure, there is a rule against obstruction of play, but I doubt what is meant by that rule covers what you seem to think it should.

I mean, I get I wasn't there myself, but just from being told what was going on, this player was...

1) not using their job stone
2) would always instantly pull the boss, but without tank stance, they wouldn't keep threat.
3) wasn't even attacking the ads for the second phase, which means it's also likely they weren't attacking the boss either.

For other cases, I think you can easily work down the line. But if you wanna know what helps me judge it.

Does the player repeatedly do the exact same incorrect thing, despite any form of assistance given, without even a hint or hair or them attempting to fix it?

If a player is new, or attempting to learn, generally they will at least attempt something that is given with intent to help them. Mess it up, possibly, but at least there'd be a visible attempt.

Now if I ask, say a rdm, to please actually cast spells, and he continues to not cast spells, and just follow us around, I think, just maybe, they're doing it intentionally.

[linayar]

I mean, I get I wasn't there myself, but just from being told what was going on, this player was...

1) not using their job stone
2) would always instantly pull the boss, but without tank stance, they wouldn't keep threat.
3) wasn't even attacking the ads for the second phase, which means it's also likely they weren't attacking the boss either.

For other cases, I think you can easily work down the line. But if you wanna know what helps me judge it.

Does the player repeatedly do the exact same incorrect thing, despite any form of assistance given, without even a hint or hair or them attempting to fix it?

If a player is new, or attempting to learn, generally they will at least attempt something that is given with intent to help them. Mess it up, possibly, but at least there'd be a visible attempt.

Now if I ask, say a rdm, to please actually cast spells, and he continues to not cast spells, and just follow us around, I think, just maybe, they're doing it intentionally.

Sounds good, until you realize some people don't read chat. That's why I think kicking is the way to go in those "clear" situations. We really don't need to have more GM intervention than we need to. You can try reporting if you think they're trying to not get kicked by going into combat, but that's about where I draw the line.

Now, if they do interact in chat, then there is no excuse for not using tank stance or not having a job stone.

[SturmChurro]

Sounds good, until you realize some people don't read chat. That's why I think kicking is the way to go in those "clear" situations. We really don't need to have more GM intervention than we need to. You can try reporting if you think they're trying to not get kicked by going into combat, but that's about where I draw the line.

Now, if they do interact in chat, then there is no excuse for not using tank stance or not having a job stone.

This is exactly why it's so easy to grief in this game, and players are doing it. As long as they aren't interacting in chat, or admitting to what they are doing, there is nothing that can be done about them. They can intentionally wipe an entire raid party, they may even put "oops!", "my bad", in chat to cover themselves, and they will have players coming out of the woodwork to defend them!