I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

[ItMe]

It's not customization that creates metaslaves. It's incompetence. You don't need to be meta to clear content. All the meta does is offer a slight advantage when you and/or others in your party not competent at performing your jobs.

Do you mean incompetence on the part of the players or the devs?
(realistically it would probably be a little of both, but which were you trying to get at when you wrote this?)

[Tracewood]

Getting off the Bravely Default II high from last month, as much as I would also like the idea of subjobs it would risk the playerbase trying to pidgeonhole you to a subjob for your main. Same with merit points, which I was totally all for but most pushed back on that idea.

I would LOVE to rock SAM/NIN and do some jutsus and have trick attack for even more damage output, but that would be crazy broken.

[FawkesWyznfarr]

I like to use the silence and stun on Dark Knight and pretend it actually does something other than silence/stun.

[Ralph2449]

Settle down, Mr. Enlightenment.

These guides contain information that took significant effort from their respective authors to compile and that amount of effort deserves some respect.

Feel free to ignore them, but don't let your Dunning-Kruger cognitive bias convince you that you know any better.

You mean the guide writers that go around saying "Customization only gives you the choice to be bad" because they have completely forgotten there's such a thing such as fun or preferred playstyles?
Let's not even talk about the idea that some unironically tell themselves they are "experts" in a VIDEO GAME of all things lmao

These people make guides so they can tell you what to do, what to play, what to think about in a video game, let's ignore the fact that this doesnt sound like a fun video game and more like a job these people arent somekind of authority to matter, many of these people in WoW are just metaslave elitists who dont really care about those dirty underperforming builds so they optimize the sims what seems to be the meta, sims are never optimized for every single possible build combination because that is too much effort from your """"experts"""".
And i ve seen how dangerous that mentality is because it creates zombies that follow such people, let's say a wow spriest legendary that the """"experts"""" kept saying is trash lead to that legendary never to be used by most people so there were no high parsing logs to show that it is the real more optimal choice, it took the """"experts""" to find the error in their sims months after the game's launch in order to find out what they kept calling trash was actually the optimal choice and of course the typical metaslaves instantly followed the holy word of their """experts"""


For example wowhead is a site that used to be about giving updates and factual information about the game, in the latest expansion though it has been turned into opinion pieces and spam of the type "X streamer tells you the top 5 meta class" "X expert tells you why you should not play those 5 non meta specs" "Why you should play meta for this content" "Random useless """expert""" we hired has to make articles to justify their pay so we made him literally repeat the changes that were found in the patch notes which you can literally learn by reading the patchnotes yourself"
And that type of content only makes the community worse, as if WoW community needed help becoming even more elitist and metaslaving xD

So no, dont try to turn FF14 into WoW, customization is not something that the current generation of gamers can handle and we have TONS OF PROOF that shows what happens when any form of customization exists

[linayar]

I'd take anything if it meant we get more variety.

Unless variety gives multiple valid options, it's unnecessary complications.

Also, variety for the sake of variety results in annoyances like differences between how tank "invulnerability ability" works with each tank.

I'd rather take the same skill (preferably paladin's, though warrior's is fine too) with different visual effects than what we have now.

[LariaKirin]

So no, dont try to turn FF14 into WoW, customization is not something that the current generation of gamers can handle and we have TONS OF PROOF that shows what happens when any form of customization exists

I disagree with the premise of this thread because I think balance is important. Customization is not the cause of exclusion. It makes balance harder, but ultimately, the cause of exclusion is imbalance. Square Enix puts alot of effort into balancing jobs in this game because they want all jobs to be played. It will never turn into WoW in this respect.

I'm more interested in the other nonsense which has nothing to do with the thread.

I don't know where you get this idea that the players who make guides have some sort of ulterior motive to control how you play. The only way it can be interpreted as prescriptive is if and only if you are looking to get the most DPS out of your job, in which case you should appreciate the effort they're putting into figuring out the mathematically optimal way to achieve that goal and making that information public.

The amount of misplaced rage and hate you have towards these players makes Deathwing look like a chill dude. Relax and take some time to understand that exclusion is the fault of imbalance and imbalance is the fault of Blizzard's incompetence. Not that of players simply putting out information.

The weight of the WoW baggage you're carrying wouldn't fit in a Boeing 747. You should probably sort that out before you talk about what is or isn't healthy.

[Wasselin]

I'm completely and utterly against this idea. Balance and job integrity is way better than sub jobs. Sub jobs really offers nothing. How does a subjob offer more customization than just... choosing a different job? Especially if it comes at the cost of balance, because then you can choose to play a subpar job, but your choice would be wrong.

We had "sub jobs" with the cross job skills that they eventually removed. Let's not repeat past mistakes.

[Stanelis]

FFXIV really needs more gameplay related customization but it doesn't necessarily need to comes as subjobs.

We had "sub jobs" with the cross job skills that they eventually removed. Let's not repeat past mistakes.

The issue with old cross job skills in 1.0 is that you could get ealmost every skill on your character, resulting in people being able to get everything. There is a middle ground between too little and too much.

As for balance, every boss start to be reskinned variation of the same one gameplay wise (dodge aoe, go there to soak, go stand over here, with tank and raid busters). So yes, if everything is the same the game is indeed balanced. Is it interesting though ? I m not so sure about that.

[Delily]

One more thing to consider, XIV may have a simplistic job and combat system but the game has complicated fights. Once you get into ex, Savage, and ultimate, you appreciate the simpler jobs to focus more on the mechanics.

[Mikey_R]

The issue with old cross job skills in 1.0 is that you could get ealmost every skill on your character, resulting in people being able to get everything. There is a middle ground between too little and too much.

They are talking about 2.0 where you had to level other jobs to get certain actions, like having to level Gladiator for Provoke at level 22?, Swiftcast for mages from Thaumaturge at 26, Blood for Blood, Internal Release, Raging Strikes etc. Some people didn't want to level a different job either due to wanting their character to just be the one job, they had no interest in another job and didnt want to be forced to level it etc.

On the topic as a whole, how would it even work? You give a RDM access to flare and...so? How would that then fit into their rotation? You could give flare the ability to generate black mana, but it also leaves you with no MP, so you would need a way to get it back. Even if you give them, say, Fire/Blizzard 1, those 2 are weaker than Jolt 2, so what is the point?

Going onto Melee, what would, say, Monk gain out of actions from other jobs? With its more fluid combo system, you chose 1 of 2 actions (for single target) when you hit each stance. Leaden fist is way too strong for something to delay that, twin is a straight damage buff, demolish is a DoT, so you are left with True Strike and Snap Punch. You would, again, only replace them with stronger skills, this is assuming the skills from other jobs even advanced the form in the first place and if it doesn't, well, it then wouldn't be worth it, again, due to Leaden Fist. If you want to take oGCDs, ok, Lance Charge and Life Surge from DRG, Can't complain about more damage and having another guaranteed crit on say, True Strike/Snap Punch, well, that is just more damage. Though, taking Samurai instead, hmm, assuming you get a way to generate Kenki, Hissatsu: Kaiten on a Leaden Fist Bootshine would be stupid amounts of damage. However, assume you can generate Keni, which would be better damage wise? Lance Charge or Kaiten? etc.

Notice how alot of things here are, if we ASSUME it works the same, ASSUME I can generate Kenki etc. Alot of actions are so ingrained into the job and all push it further into it's rotation that it really doesn't benefit another job taking it. If DRG takes more GCDs, they start dropping Disembowel and Chaos Thrust and delaying the refresh of LotD. If Samurai's delay their GCD, that delays their Iaijutsu, which also delays Shoha etc.

Adding in sub jobs would mean a complete rework of how the jobs function. There will always be a best 2-3 combinations that work the best (lets be honest, with the current system, how would a WHM benefit MNK at all?), and anyone doing anything else than these main combinations are just hindering the group. This also doesn't take into account how different skills scale on different stats, that Full Thrust from DRG might be strong, but stick it on a caster and it will hit like a wet noodle.