6.0 Story Speculations

[Anonymoose]

I went back and forth on whether to make this a post or a thread but I'm just going to shove it here. I was thinking today about an old conspiracy theory of mine and I think perhaps it's time to revisit it (in the vein of being wrong for fun and profit). Back in Heavensward, the Word of the Mother's speech and the Moogles possibly remembering the First Umbral Era led to me thinking about that particular event a little too much. One of the things I was stuck on was that the legends seem to be overlapping a little bit.

It is said that the Twelve left Eorzea at the coming of the First Umbral Era, ending the "Age of the Gods" and ushering in the Age of Man.

The way the first lore book phrased the coverage encouraged conflating this event with the end of a "prehistory" but something about it always sat wrong with me once people started connecting it to the pre-sundering world alone. As I pointed out then, tl;dr, the great sundering and first rejoining can't be the same event.

But let's check out that phrasing again...

The First Umbral Era: The Calamity of Wind

Eorzea is characterized by elemental calamities which plunge the realm into short, yet harrowing periods of chaos known as Umbral Eras, followed by extended periods of prosperity known as Astral Eras. What then, you may ask, of the land before the first calamity struck? Drawing from the songs and writings of countless civilizations, theologians believe prehistory to be a tempestuous time of uncontrolled creation overseen by a mercurial god or gods - creation which abruptly ends with the destruction of all that exists, ultimately allowing for the rise of mankind from the wreckage. Historians and scholars of biological fields, on the other hand, claim that mankind could not have simply "appeared" and suggest an evolution of the species in the thousand thousand years preceding the first calamity. What the two groups do, however, agree upon is that modem history begins with the First Umbral Era.

It's easy to see how one might miss the forest for the trees there. However, after Shadowbringers we can (probably) safely say that the "tempestuous time of uncontrolled creation overseen by a mercurial god or gods" is actually the Ancient Era, where Amaurot thrived before the great sundering. I think the "competing theory" is actually also true, to a degree, but reflects an unnaturally created world findings its own natural equilibrium for about 2,000 years after the sundering.

My theory at the time was that there was a hitherto unrecognized era that was post-sundering and pre-calamity, and that's where the Twelve thrived. That perhaps Hydaelyn made guardians for Her children, and somehow the Ascians were able to exploit these beings in such a way that it led to the First Umbral Era, so She sent them away somehow.

I think I'd like to return to that with a new speculation about where 6.0 might be headed by combining this old theory with one of my more recent ones: Venat's coalition of Hydaelyn summoners are the Twelve. (How this fits with Azeyma/Azim is an immedate "wtf" here, I admit, but let's set it aside.)

After Hydaelyn's victory over Zodiark and the great sundering, the planet entered a new age with the victorious - and now tempered - "Counter Convocation" remanifested in some form at the helm of Hydaelyn's new world. As with the Convocation and Zodiark, this coalition perhaps even now existed only to spread Her Light. As Elidibus, Emet-Selch, and Lahabrea restored their sundered brethren to their offices and became the Ascians, they struggled against Hydaelyn's champions, and this led to the First Umbral Era.

Hydaelyn, realizing the vulnerability, sundered her own champions to save them and let them be reborn into countless lives detached from the tempered identities they would have if their immortal memories were restored. And so the Twelve were no longer with us.

But the Ascians would come again, and again, and again. We know that Hydaelyn would essentially mass-market the Echo and take any who answered the call, but I believe - just as there are rare occasions where she chooses to entrust a single champion with extraordinary power - there were also occasions where she re-unites her ancient allies as whoever they are today, and this is why history remembers them in such eras as the Third Astral or the Zodiac Braves as a group of twelve, the Twelve reborn.

It's a pretty tall house of cards, but hey, it's fun to think about.

[Rosenstrauch]

It's a pretty tall house of cards, but hey, it's fun to think about.

This is generally how I think "prehistory" unfolded as well, though I'd like two throw in my own two cents on the subject.

One possible reason for the discrepancy between The Twelve being Hydaelyn's twelve summoners and the "Azem = Azeyma" thing is that there are, potentially, thirteen Gods amongst The Twelve. Two of them are typically treated as one: Nald and Thal, or "Nald'thal". Another possibility is that Azem did not, in fact, become Azeyma. Rather, the title and responsibilities of Azem were used as inspiration for one of Hydaelyn's summoners, and that summoner became Azeyma instead.

I could see the story going either way. And I wouldn't be surprised if, were the second possibility I suggested true, the other members of The Twelve similarly pulled from the identities and roles of the other Convocation members for inspiration. There's still a number discrepancy to be had (does Venat/Hydaelyn supplant Elibidus/Zodiark? Which two Ascian Overlords get rolled together to become Nald'thal?), but I think that would make sense.

[Kesey]

snip.

To add evidence to this theory, at the end of the Anamnesis Anyder, there are 12 ancients with Venat. I too believe they are the ancients that later become known as "The Twelve". Also, Rosenstrauch's point about Nald and Thal being two twins counted as one person does allow a space for Azem to be counted among their number.

As I recently pointed out in another thread, the cave paintings in Rak'tika Greatwood imply there is more to the story between Hydaelyn and Zodiark as well. Qitana Ravel's reveal showed us panels of summoning Zodiark, followed by summoning Hydaelyn, both Hydaelyn and Zodiark together, then Hydaelyn and Zodiark fighting. The panel we see the two of them together is the most significant because it implies there was an event that comes after the summoning but before Hydaelyn has to sunder Zodiark.

I'll even take it a step further and say that event most likely involves Azem. And as evidence of this the first thing the WOL does at the beginning of 5.4 while everyone is catching up is remember that specific panel where Hydaelyn and Zodiark are together--not the one where they are fighting. And since 5.4 is the start of the prelude to 6.0 this has to be significant.

Furthermore, the cave paintings that come from the caves near Slighterbough run by the Children of Everlasting Dark also show three panels, one of which supports your theory. The latter two panels we know of because one notes the rise of the Ronkan Empire and the other Ardbert and company saving the First. The first panel shows a group gathered together, the person in the foremost position seems to be holding a staff (can't help but draw the comparison between that drawn staff and Louisiox's staff Tupsimati) and white cloud billowing forth. We can say that those in the picture are maybe "The Twelve" doing whatever thing we're missing from the timeline they accomplished.

[Anonymoose]

The panel we see the two of them together is the most significant because it implies there was an event that comes after the summoning but before Hydaelyn has to sunder Zodiark.

I think what we've been told so far glosses over how long it took for Hydaelyn to actually reach and shackle Zodiark. I don't think we know the full extent of Amaurot's civil war.

the foremost position seems to be holding a staff (can't help but draw the comparison between that drawn staff and Louisiox's staff Tupsimati) and white cloud billowing forth. We can say that those in the picture are maybe "The Twelve" doing whatever thing we're missing from the timeline they accomplished

This part slaps my tinfoil hat right on. In the 1.0 Lominsa story, we saw a horn-and-tablet combo called "The Key". In combination they were used to summon a great deal of aether, causing the Ascians to try to get them into the hands of the beast tribes for the 1562 primal summoning push. We saw Travanchet give one such horn to the Sahagin (and later re-gift it for Alexander). We saw Corguevais make off with the one that was later used to summon Ifrit. And we were told Tupsimati was actually one, as well.

Here's my question: Was Louisoix's staff an accurate representation of what all the Keys looked like, or did he install the horn/tablet on a conventional weapon? If his staff is the accurate version, we may have twelve Keys, each representing one of the Twelve.

...EXCEPT... Notice that the Ixal have staffs just like Tupsimati with the wind gods on them (stolen from the Eorzean Alliance, allegedly). So maybe the version we saw in the Lominsa story was more accurate. Maybe it's the decorative horn instrument and tablet.

...EXCEPT... That tablet was found on Seal Rock (Allagan testing ground for anti-primal weapons) written in Rhotano Bloodcant, a dialect of the Sahagin language.

...How many Keys are there really? What are the tablets supposed to look like? In all likelihood the ORIGINAL answer was probably bound up with the Presence of Silvertear Lake sealed beneath Mor Dhona. So that's lost to time. (For now?)

But this could be one opportunity to clear up what they Keys are since they were linked so closely with the primals. Imagine if they were used in the ritual to summon Hydaelyn. Why horns? Who knows. Though a musical instrument would be neat since our mysterious benefactor, later Hydaelyn, was originally an unseen songstress.

[Vyrerus]

Why horns? Who knows.

In our ancient world, horns had two practical uses: Drinking or Signaling. In some places they were used for a long time to call meetings. Y'know, to summon an assembly.

Often, in mythology, they're also said to be given to kings, warriors, or clergy as a sign of investiture by said person's patron deity.

As described in the Alexander raid series by Mide, the horn given to her by Travanchet has a metal tip. This means it is based off of a traditional drinking horn.

The most famous of drinking horns is the Gjallarhorn, from Norse Mythology. Heimdallr and Mimir used it to drink from Mimir's well, gaining intellects far surpassing other gods. It was also prophesized to herald the Ragnarok. When blown by Heimdallr it would signal that the Giants were on the Bifrost, coming to destroy the Gods and Asgard. Its sound would penetrate every nook and cranny of the cosmos, alerting all beings cataclysmic destruction was eminent.

There are also quite a few German and other European fables about, "Fairy Horns." Gaudy, ostentatious drinking horns possessed by Fae-like beings, offered to man as a kindness or trick, and then the horns are abruptly stolen. Some, when drank from, grant superhuman ability or restore all stamina. Others singe all hide and hair. Some are made of metals unknown to mortal men.

I'd say horns were chosen for the Gjallarhorn parallel.

[Veloran]

My theory at the time was that there was a hitherto unrecognized era that was post-sundering and pre-calamity, and that's where the Twelve thrived.

Most likely the time post-sundering pre-calamity is just conflated with memories of the Ancient era. I don't think the Twelve in any incarnation we would recognize them ever existed, it's just a 12,000 year old game of telephone mixing up the Convocation, Hydaelyn's summoners, and impactful historical figures like Warriors of Light.

As I recently pointed out in another thread, the cave paintings in Rak'tika Greatwood imply there is more to the story between Hydaelyn and Zodiark as well. Qitana Ravel's reveal showed us panels of summoning Zodiark, followed by summoning Hydaelyn, both Hydaelyn and Zodiark together, then Hydaelyn and Zodiark fighting. The panel we see the two of them together is the most significant because it implies there was an event that comes after the summoning but before Hydaelyn has to sunder Zodiark.

The structure of the cave actually implies that there may have once been a fifth mural where the exit to Rak'tika Falls currently exists, and thousands of years of erosion created a passage in that location which washed the image away.



I'd also like to say that examining those murals more closely, I'm about 200% sure Zodiark and Hydaelyn are in fact the same being. Note Zodiark's doubled halos before Hydaelyn appears, and then Hydaelyn's doubled halos when Zodiark is defeated. In the interim panel which shows them contesting each other and roughly equal, they're each smaller and lesser, and only have one, while the cast down Zodiark has none. This would match Hydaelyn's story of how she "excised" Zodiark from herself, fit Lahabrea's description of Hydaelyn as a parasite, and explain how the hell Venat's group were able to summon a being that was equal to a god that it took the sacrifice of half the Ancient's population to create.

[Lauront]

Most likely the time post-sundering pre-calamity is just conflated with memories of the Ancient era. I don't think the Twelve in any incarnation we would recognize them ever existed, it's just a 12,000 year old game of telephone mixing up the Convocation, Hydaelyn's summoners, and impactful historical figures like Warriors of Light.

I agree. Also, the gradual emergence of the gods, as per the myths, could be viewed through an alternative interpretation: the gradual ascension of the Overlords. My suspicion is that the Ascians may have originally observed man in the 1st Umbral Era, so lingered around for a while, and then decided to proceed with their plan, which would coincide with the supposed departure of the gods. It's also rather telling that the Balance as a card encompasses Azeyma and Nald'thal, who we could say correspond to Azem and Emet-Selch as seats. One to go out into the world (of the living) and provide the Convocation with insight to inform their policies, the other to monitor the aetherial realm (the realm of the souls) and all that occurred in it. I've seen it speculated that the former Emissary may have folded this duty into his in the absence of Azem, which is an interesting take. Either way, I think it is that ancient memory of a body of luminaries in particular fields that guided the star's wellbeing which inspires the Twelve.

The structure of the cave actually implies that there may have once been a fifth mural where the exit to Rak'tika Falls currently exists, and thousands of years of erosion created a passage in that location which washed the image away.



I'd also like to say that examining those murals more closely, I'm about 200% sure Zodiark and Hydaelyn are in fact the same being. Note Zodiark's doubled halos before Hydaelyn appears, and then Hydaelyn's doubled halos when Zodiark is defeated. In the interim panel which shows them contesting each other and roughly equal, they're each smaller and lesser, and only have one, while the cast down Zodiark has none. This would match Hydaelyn's story of how she "excised" Zodiark from herself, fit Lahabrea's description of Hydaelyn as a parasite, and explain how the hell Venat's group were able to summon a being that was equal to a god that it took the sacrifice of half the Ancient's population to create.

Agreed. I think that middle scene is showing the effect her enervation had on him. One way of interpreting the fire behind them is conflict, but in light of all we've seen (and it's been a while since I've given this image a second look), I have to wonder if it's the harbinger of the Final Days. Maybe he had suppressed and caged (but not destroyed) it, and upon his power waning a bit, it re-emerged. Her side may have been concerned about his power, only for the dilution of it to reveal something they did not expect. With the fires around him at the end, again it could've taken possession of him. She tries to sunder it but in so doing inadvertently sunders the entire world with it (this sort of unpredictability might be why Azem was reluctant to lend either side their aid.) Implying if it were to be released once his power is drawn upon by Zenos & co., this thing could be released with it... and then go for her. With that said, another interpretation of the fires is the conflict raging. Either way, the ancients probably would not have realised the precise nature of what was going on in the Aetherial Sea, just that they were warring. It looks almost certain to me now that the Final Days had something set them in motion deliberately. Not to make too much of it either, but the structure in the middle of the scene with the buildings stands out as well, with its crystalline exterior.

There are limitations to this painting in that it's a recreation based on memories within the sundered of the ancient world. Emet does not dispute the overall picture, but possibly only because in broad strokes it conveyed the story correctly. There is also the fact that the Sound and its origins were very elusive even in the ancient world, so that needs to be considered as well - if such a theory were correct, we're talking about extremely esoteric knowledge that not even Hydaelyn chooses to willingly divulge, so that also puts into question whether this represents the sound's cause, or is just representing the violent conflict. The Amano art and their connection by the hip (plus the "no light, no dark" thing - these are interesting in that regard, and particularly the very different vibe the Amano art takes on) may mean the true picture is more complex. I still think Azem's refusal to be involved with either is important in respect of the neutral position this puts them in, and possibly the answer to 5.0's hanging question. Many of us had rushed to assume the 14th led the charge to summon her, but they did not and I think that puts them in a unique position in this whole conflict. I am keen to see how Hades, narrator of the 6.0 trailer and Azem's erstwhile close friend (and in 5.3, rescuer), will feature in it all. Plus, her light (thus, umbral) nature might mean she would be the more perfect prison for a thing such as the sound's cause.

On another note, re-examining this given what we now also makes me wonder. The way it's described there, it shares quite a few traits of the Final Days as a phenomenon. Possibly a red herring, but being an otherworldly summoned monstrosity with such traits, it makes it all the more intriguing.

On a note dealing with Fandaniel, I had a random thought which may explain what's going on with him. It deals with the Ascians we've defeated so far and our fights against them. Each one of them has fit the Scion of Darkness motif in either their actions or their fights, with as of right now, Fandaniel being the outlier (mostly due to screen time).

Lahabrea's Scion of Darkness title is "the Corrupt". From his actions of teaching and encouraging the beast tribes to summon their gods, he is indeed a Corrupter.
Nabriales is "the Impure", and the fight against him involved not only moves that looked wholey unnatural with tendrils of darkness, but he also had a "reverse" realm where the colors were inversed, coming across as completely unnatural. He indeed fits Impure.
Igeyorhm is "the Whisperer", and was the main cause of the 13th being overcome by too much darkness from teaching its warriors dark arts, whispering to them its secrets. In a sense, she fits "the Whisperer"
Emet-Selch is "the Death Seraph", and has not only helped destroy numerous shards, but turns into the literal embodiment of death in his final battle. He definitely fits the title.
Elidibus is the "Keeper of Precepts". Precepts are general rules meant to regulate behavior or thought. He kept all the other Ascians in line with his rules in order to prevent another incident like with the 13th, so he too fits the title.

Now we come to Fandaniel, whose Scion of Darkness title would be "Bringer of Order". Notice instantly the problem? He's not bringing order at all, but sheer chaos, and takes delight in it. This would be the opposite of what his Scion of Darkness title is. If I were to make a wager on what's going on, he is likely corrupted by that which caused The Sound. This would explain why he had to be kept in line so much by Elidibus, and why he's perfectly willing to destroy the world by recreating The Final Days, something that would be the complete opposite of what the Ascians want. It's very likely his death or his plot will result in the return of The Sound's creator.

It was mentioned earlier that there may be FFX vibes in this expansion. If so, then expect The Sound's creator to be a Yu Yevon expy, something that possesses others and corrupts them into doing what it desires, which is apparently full on destruction of everything.

I'd like to expand on this in that the Ascians we know don't JUST fit the titles of their correspondent Scion of Darkness, but also their Scion of Light.

Igeyorhm, the Martyr, is the first to actively lose a shard when the Thirteenth is too far gone to be rejoined. Us killing her would also have saved Lahabrea (since we only had the one White Auracite on us) if Thordan hadn't shown up.
Lahabrea the Abyssal Celebrant: Considering he was one of the most involved, especially having the ear of several people in power (Gaius and Thordan), as well as being one of three unsundered. It seems a bit of a stretch but fits him overall.
Loghrif the Transcendent... fits perfectly with the person we know held the seat of Loghrif. She transcended her Ascian life and became an entirely new individual.
Mitron, The Chastiser, spends most of his time raging against the WoL and making them relive twisted versions of their trauma (a fusion of Thancred and Ran'jit for Ryne; the Shadowkeeper for the WoL). Fittingly, Chaos' title of Walker of the Wheel, is a reference to him being stuck in a cycle of death and rebirth. Mitron WAS INDEED locked in the same cycle before Ardbert unintentionally unleashed the Flood of Light with him as Patient Zero.
Emet-Selch, Angel of Truth... need I say more...?
Nabriales, the Majestic... well, he certainly thought of HIMSELF as Majestic.

Ultima and Zodiark/Elidibus notably DON'T have a counterpart, so their only title is "High Seraph" for the former, and "Keeper of Precepts" for the latter.

Now, Fandaniel... his Scion of Light title is THE PROTECTOR. Again, from all we know, it's the exact opposite of Danny. So I'm thinking there's some chickanery afoot in here.

EDIT: If it helps deduce the remaining Ascians' roles. We're still missing:
Pashtarot, Knight-Star, counterpart to The Condemner.
Halmarut, The Arbiter, counterpart to The Judge-Sal
Deudalaphon, The Benevolent, counterpart to The Wroth (THIS should be interesting).
Ultima the High Seraph (again, mentioned above...)

Emmerololth the Holy Queen... counterpart to the Darkening Cloud... got dealt with off-screen in Eureka so idek...

Good observations - I think that Fandaniel is indeed the most dissonant and it is likely no accident, given his inverted sigil and faded/broken memory crystal.

[Kesey]

Most likely the time post-sundering pre-calamity is just conflated with memories of the Ancient era. I don't think the Twelve in any incarnation we would recognize them ever existed, it's just a 12,000 year old game of telephone mixing up the Convocation, Hydaelyn's summoners, and impactful historical figures like Warriors of Light.

I would argue the opposite. I think if we saw the true version of "The Twelve" we'd see Azem with his/her comrades in very much the same light we see the WOL with the Scions.

I'm even willing to bet they will take it even one step further and we'll find out that "The Twelve" have all been reborn as our closest allies. Meaning there is probably a corresponding Twelve deity for every member of the scions, who share a small fragment of the original Twelve's soul.

This also begs the question if there is an open spot that would be filled by Zenos?

[Veloran]

I would argue the opposite. I think if we saw the true version of "The Twelve" we'd see Azem with his/her comrades in very much the same light we see the WOL with the Scions.

I'm even willing to bet they will take it even one step further and we'll find out that "The Twelve" have all been reborn as our closest allies. Meaning there is probably a corresponding Twelve deity for every member of the scions, who share a small fragment of the original Twelve's soul.

This also begs the question if there is an open spot that would be filled by Zenos?

Note "in any incarnation we would recognize them". In addition to the fact that there aren't twelve Scions and that WoL alone seems to embody multiple facets of the Twelve in different ways, none of the current Scions correspond to any of the Twelve in any meaningful regard. Furthermore while people like to think of Azem as adventuring around with a party of friends, we really have little evidence they were ever doing such a thing, for all we know they were primarily acting alone while out in the world.

[RyuDragnier]

Note "in any incarnation we would recognize them". In addition to the fact that there aren't twelve Scions and that WoL alone seems to embody multiple facets of the Twelve in different ways, none of the current Scions correspond to any of the Twelve in any meaningful regard. Furthermore while people like to think of Azem as adventuring around with a party of friends, we really have little evidence they were ever doing such a thing, for all we know they were primarily acting alone while out in the world.

I would guess that Azem did indeed have a few friends he brought along often, but they were likely along to deal with problems in their neck of the world. Example, summoning Hien to help with a problem nearby in Azim Steppe or Ruby Sea would be probable, while summoning say Pipin from Eorzea would be unlikely.