I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

[Kemiko]

Unfortunately, the job system has been removing the illusion of choice, and for good reason, for a long while now. Even in 2.0 there was always a "best" way to allocate stat points and you were only hurt for using them wrong and it consequently made the duality of Scholar and Summoner a chore with the INT vs MND allocation issue. Cross-Class skills were hilariously mandatory for several jobs rather than just granted and at the end of the day, all this just served to counter their selling point of an accessible MMO.

Jobs have very clear play design where you are "supposed" to play the job in a certain manner or suffer for it. There's no creativity or customization involved. Content is lenient in that you aren't expected to play it the supposed way perfectly, but up to a certain standard at least. The sort of fun involved with the main/sub job system created some unique formats of gameplay that I, too, really enjoyed (even if I didn't like the NIN-tank meme when NIN was released) but would definitely not work here. So far, the only customizable job we have is Blue Mage and it is a Limited Job by design.

There's a lot of designs from XI I'd love to see here but I've just resigned to accepting XIV has no interest in it.

[Ashgarth]

Really off the wall job combinations are the best part about subjobs for me, personally. When all jobs become the same, or there becomes a meta, everything becomes repetitive. There becomes one way to clear a dungeon, one way to play a job, one combo set or "rotation". That's so incredibly boring and predictable.

It's far more interesting to see variety. And subjobs lead for so many endless combinations of skillsets. I think I'd rather not be invited to parties by meta-minded gamers with little patience for things outside of established strategies than put up with dull repetition.
During the earlier days of Final Fantasy XI, I liked to play Ninja with Red Mage as a subjob. Was it effective? No, because it didn't get access to either the better White Mage or Black Mage spells. But I liked the fact that it made me feel like a Ninja Red Mage. Some people told me I wasn't useful for their party, so I missed some invites in Kazham. Or was told to go play a White Mage at times, rather than Red Mage. But in the end, I had fun despite those negative and discouraging experiences.

If XIV let me do similar, I'd probably like to try something like Samurai with Red Mage as a subjob. Using a katana and being able to cast Verraise would be awesome.

All those infinite posibilites end the moment the most efficient subjob combinations are discovered and it becomes the new meta. You can play it if you want to, but noone would want you, ever, in their teams.

Please let's not pretend you would get invites to a party in FFXI as a... I dunno, Dark Knight/Puppetmaster. It didnt happen no matter how fun you thought it would be.

[Jkap_Goat]

I really enjoy FFXI DNC and i like how some or most of the FFXI jobs are hybrids or Support where they are really different from each other, whereas FFXIV jobs are very homogenized ( except blu)

I've been playing FFXI for 2 years now and i feel like its battle system and overworld is much better than xiv, more thought is put into fights in xi where you just spam buttons on xiv and avoid orange on floor








FFXI world is so massive and alive, even though its old, the adventure and the dangerous area is there, i have felt more of an amazing adventure my time in Vanadiel than my time in xiv and ive been playing xiv for 6 years now.

Love FFXI and i cannot wait for its 20th aniversry

[ReynTime]

All those infinite posibilites end the moment the most efficient subjob combinations are discovered and it becomes the new meta. You can play it if you want to, but noone would want you, ever, in their teams.

Please let's not pretend you would get invites to a party in FFXI as a... I dunno, Dark Knight/Puppetmaster. It didnt happen no matter how fun you thought it would be.

Meta is complete bollocks in a game where you get zero rewards for clearing content slower or faster than another party. The only time it matters is in competitive play, PvP, which XIV isn't that good at anyway.
So having "best" builds is hardly an argument against the "illusion" of choice. Furthermore you don't need a stat allocation system to have different builds either. Just having more than one setup to clear a fight with the same job is already much more interesting.

I always loathed that argument. It assumes everyone cares about meta. When that has never been true. And even in MMORPGs where jobs had more than one playstyle (like Ragnarok online) guides still didn't ruin the experience because even following formulas meant you could choose between 2 or 3 builds that were viable.

You want to know the REAL reason why XIV streamlined jobs to this 'balance'? So players who 'main' certain jobs don't feel insecure about their setup of choice.

[EirolOcarrol]

All those infinite posibilites end the moment the most efficient subjob combinations are discovered and it becomes the new meta. You can play it if you want to, but noone would want you, ever, in their teams.

Please let's not pretend you would get invites to a party in FFXI as a... I dunno, Dark Knight/Puppetmaster. It didnt happen no matter how fun you thought it would be.

Nobody wants to party with you is a bit hyperbolic. I missed out on a few parties due to job combinations or such. But I often spent that time getting silks and such until I found a party that would have me.

Personally, I don't relate to the meta-gaming philosophy at all. And feel like it ruins the fun out of things for me. When there's one right way to do things, and maximizing efficiency at all times, it feels more like a repetitive occupation rather than fun play. I rather think of this exclusion on a positive note. That it works as a filter for not having to spend time among gamers that don't share a playstyle I value. I think it's mutually beneficial that I don't party with metagamers. I am okay with suboptimal skill or job combinations, and thus I know there are others that would be. That was the case in XI.

When someone didn't want to party with me in XI, I just felt that I found the wrong party. Most of the time I found friendly people who wanted to help me. And were interested in pulling through and making friends, rather than rushing through at the most efficient pace. As, at the end, all combinations were valid or useful to some extent. Even if not ideal. One time, a nice Galka helped safely give me passage to unlock Ninja, when I was a lower level Red Mage, just because I thought being a Ninja was cool. For little benefit of their own. Nice gestures and good experiences like that, are those that stuck with me, and I valued.

Since others have brought it up, I really miss cross class skills. Really, I enjoyed the 1.0 combat system, aside from how slow it was. It was too slow. Ideally I would have liked if it evolved into something as fast and action oriented as Tera or Blade & Soul. But they stuck with tab targeting for A Realm Reborn. Thankfully the combat was much faster than 1.0. But the streamlining of every Job to fit a very rigid mold has been the opposite of what I've wanted.

One might say that XIV's path is now set in stone. And that the developer team moved on from what I wanted in 1.0. And that I need to come to terms with the fact that Final Fantasy XIV transformed into something other than I wanted, and not live in the past. But there are still many things I love about XIV. Even if I miss what was or could have been. One may say it best to move on and wait and hope for the next installment of Final Fantasy Online, rather than try to hope for major changes in the current formula. But I'm afraid that seems highly unlikely that they'll move on to a new online role playing game any time particularly soon. They've made it clear that they're going to remain focused on XIV for the foreseeable future.

As unlikely as some dream changes or directions I would like for the game may be. I think it even less likely to hope for yet another MMORPG from them anytime soon. I'd rather focus on what I'd like to see in the game in front of me.

[Ashgarth]

Nobody wants to party with you is a bit hyperbolic.

Is it though?

Let's say you create a party finder to kill whatever. I join in as Blm and say "I roleplay as an ice mage, so I will only use ice spells i know it's not efficient but I'd ike you to respect my choice."
Please, tell me with a straight face you'd answer "Of course, join in!"

People will not accept unefficient builds they moment they spot them. All it will create is frustration once the most efficient combos are found out and little else is accepected, a la WoW with their talent system and class disparity.

[Bright-Flower]

It largely depends.

How wide is the gap in effectiveness for different options? Can you still perform well?

In any sort of queued content in this game it wouldn't matter. And if all options are viable, the way all jobs are viable now, it may not be that big of a deal. Some parties might demand the best of the current meta but not everyone is that picky.

[Brightamethyst]

It left for so much creativity and self expression.

It did not. I mean, it did on paper, it did in theory, but it never actually worked that way in practice.

You and I seem to remember old-timey FFXI very differently. I know that everyone (myself included) has crazy nostalgia, but it was definitely NOT the free form job system you think you remember. Sub-jobs were only ever used to prop up main jobs. They almost never created viable hybrids (barring a few noteable exceptions like DRG/mage.) Some odd combos had some niche uses (PLD/NIN, RDM/DRK, etc), and of course you could do whatever the hell you want while solo, but in a party? Pick something useful or GTFO. No one talks about it now with nostalgia blinding us all but 75 era XI was even more efficiency focused than XIV is. Everything took... so... damn... long... that time and efficiency were king. I don't care how fun you think DRK/RDM is, I'm not inviting you to DD in my exp party. Not where there are 700 other melees LFG who are happy to go /WAR/SAM/NIN if asked.

What you want is the idea of sub-jobs. Not the actual XI game system.

[Allegor]

All those infinite posibilites end the moment the most efficient subjob combinations are discovered and it becomes the new meta. You can play it if you want to, but noone would want you, ever, in their teams.

Please let's not pretend you would get invites to a party in FFXI as a... I dunno, Dark Knight/Puppetmaster. It didnt happen no matter how fun you thought it would be.

It's a bit of a slippery slope to say it like that, but you do have a point. It's one of those things that casual and midcore players [the great majority] would pay no mind and even enjoy but progression groups would go nuts about.

[Komarimono]

As much as I loved FFXI, I do not look back at it with rose tinted goggles. Anyone claiming it's more massive and alive then FFXIV, are really grasping at straws. It was a sludge fest, very slow paced even if some thought it more strategic due to the limited menu systems. Oh, well, we need you to cast this, but need to wait 30 seconds or do, so please wait! Or, just bringing people strictly for stun, and nothing but a stun on bosses. Or the long fights that dredged on and on for hours and hours and hours...

Ya... I'll have to disagree with FFXI being more alive then XIV. It took longer, since the game over all is so slow paced. But does it have more story? Features? Accessibility? Goodness no, not even close, not even half of what FFXIV has brought to the table over the years.

FFXI, down leveling on deaths, slow long drawn out fights that were made that way needlessly. Oh, ya died? Ya going to your home point if no one around to res you. I know, I was begged as a WHM to res people every ten minutes or so. Camping for hours into days for HMN's?

I could literally go on forever, on how there's nothing in FFXI that is remotely better then anything in FFXIV. Sub classes being one of them.