RP Party finders being reported AGAIN without so much as a reason.

[Saefinn]

It's simple, just don't ERP. Problem solved.

It's against the ToS and Square Enix takes their reputation very seriously for good and legal reasons. And guess what? People lie all the time. About their age, occupation, height, etc. but if you take yourself seriously you avoid risking such a scenario to begin with. It's not hard to find a partner in real life if you put aside the awkardness and go hit a gym. I personally do not understand folks that use the internet for such things, especially in environements where age cannot be verified. Acting like a responsible adult isn't hard whatsoever, it just takes emotional maturity to put aside your primal urges to defend the integrity of whichever community you participate in.

We don't know if they consider ERP against the ToS, the ToS is purposefully vague. Whilst there is a 13+ bit, it's in relation to profanity and offensive language, which would generally indicate the words used and not what they describe, yet by technicality everything you do is conveyed by language. So would they stretch the meaning to offensive content expressed through language even though the language itself is not offensive? We don't know because GM's have never clarified that, nor have any statements been made to that effect. Heck in one of these threads somebody posted a screenshot of a GM saying it's okay. And the only ERPers we know of getting hit are those publicallt advertising ERP venues on PF and likely for the reasons you've listed.

But nothing about private ERP between two consenting adults.

And with the comments about finding a partner IRL, I feel that is irrelevant. It's not single people seeking cyber sex or a relationship, though that is encompassed by it. But RP in general can be compared to writing, all genres are covered including erotica. So people with an interest in erotica will be drawn to ERP.

And RP is usually not about self inserting but writing your character(s), with that said, self insertion can be a thing because RP can vary.

[Shin96]

We don't know if they consider ERP against the ToS, the ToS is purposefully vague. Whilst there is a 13+ bit, it's in relation to profanity and offensive language, which would generally indicate the words used and not what they describe, yet by technicality everything you do is conveyed by language. So would they stretch the meaning to offensive content expressed through language even though the language itself is not offensive? We don't know because GM's have never clarified that, nor have any statements been made to that effect. Heck in one of these threads somebody posted a screenshot of a GM saying it's okay. And the only ERPers we know of getting hit are those publicallt advertising ERP venues on PF and likely for the reasons you've listed.

If the GM actually said that I'm not sure they understand what company they're working for really. Language indeed has a plethora of uses and meanings but this clearly is about ERP publically advertised in a game that isn't rated M. While the ToS are vague I don't think it's the job of the developers to inform their playerbase on the basic principle of common sense. People should know that there's a risk a minor might be involved and for that reason alone, I personally would write that into the ToS if I responsible for it and outright prohibit such display.

But nothing about private ERP between two consenting adults.

Because it's virtually impossible to verify this, and as I previously mentioned, there is not a single way you can see someone's age in the game unless you join a 18+ FC or Discord that is asking for proof of your birth certificate. Based on these facts alone, it's safe to say that SE doesn't really encourage this behaviour if players have to circumvent a way around this issue.

And with the comments about finding a partner IRL, I feel that is irrelevant. It's not single people seeking cyber sex or a relationship, though that is encompassed by it. But RP in general can be compared to writing, all genres are covered including erotica. So people with an interest in erotica will be drawn to ERP.

It's just advice. As usual with these things. If people can gain temporary pleasure from putting on a deceptive veil and pretend their opposite partner is of legal age that's up to them. But sometimes your partner might be a predator fully aware of seeking relationships with minors. They also might be a minor themselves. Therefore I believe ERP is not essential and should be dealt with appropriately.

And RP is usually not about self inserting but writing your character(s), with that said, self insertion can be a thing because RP can vary.

RP is RP and ERP is something else. If you're pretending to own a restaurant there is no way someone can take advantage of you. When sexual pleasantries are shared, that's where the line gets thinner and it can become dangerous.

[Saefinn]

If the GM actually said that I'm not sure they understand what company they're working for really. Language indeed has a plethora of uses and meanings but this clearly is about ERP publically advertised in a game that isn't rated M. While the ToS are vague I don't think it's the job of the developers to inform their playerbase on the basic principle of common sense. People should know that there's a risk a minor might be involved and for that reason alone, I personally would write that into the ToS if I responsible for it and outright prohibit such display.

Based on your interpretation of the ToS, yes. There are interpretations that include the point about "Online Interactions are Unrated", which people take to mean as long as they don't violate the ToS, then what they do is 'okay'. The only part of the ToS that references age appropriateness is language. And this is where it becomes even less clear because I've seen people here suggest that's inclusive of ERP because they use words to communicate their acts. But if a novel contains offensive content we refer to it as offensive content and not language. When we look at legal definitions around profanity and offensive language it's more about the words used and not what's being described. So I don't think their position is clear on this. And there's stuff out there to suggest that it's okay as long as you keep it private.

If me, I too would make it clearer in the ToS or make some kind of message to indicate how it might be interpreted and emphasis it's looked at case-by-case if lawyering of rules is a concern. That's my frustration here too, we keep seeing these ERP venue threads keep popping up after people get moderated because here's no clear guidelines to forbid them advertising and people think what they're doing is okay and think after the first GM was found to be erroneously actioning people's accounts for PF advertisements that it's okay to continue...because the feedback from the community rep wasn't specific enough. But what's apparent from observation, the error was over non-ERP RP events being advertised and that ERP events being advertised was an issue, but we've figured this out through seeking the common denominator of the venues targeted since and powers of deduction and not because GM's or SE or anybody has made clear what their position is on ERP adverts appearing in the PF...and I feel that's only clear to those who have watched this discourse unfold.

Because it's virtually impossible to verify this, and as I previously mentioned, there is not a single way you can see someone's age in the game unless you join a 18+ FC or Discord that is asking for proof of your birth certificate. Based on these facts alone, it's safe to say that SE doesn't really encourage this behaviour if players have to circumvent a way around this issue.

I agree. And there is always a risk with age, it's not exclusive to ERP or even virtual interactions but IRL. How many people ask for ID or a birth certificate when flirting in the real world? There are teenagers who look like adults and have the maturity of an adult...but aren't one.

However, that doesn't mean it's against the ToS. It does mean if you are wrong in judging it then you are legally responsible and if you break the law, then yes, you are subject to the part of the ToS to do with the law. But ERP is not against the law, so that clause doesn't apply unless it's illegal ERP. And this is probably why they don't like seeing it advertised because there's too much anonymity. But between two parties who know each other well, is it the same then?

It's just advice. As usual with these things. If people can gain temporary pleasure from putting on a deceptive veil and pretend their opposite partner is a model that's up to them. But sometimes your partner might be a predator fully aware of seeking relationships with minors. Therefore I believe ERP is not essential and should actively be prohibited.

I'm generally on the fence. I'm not one to want to ruin people's fun and am not one to dictate how people engage with the game but not at the expense of others. From what I understand based on what people from the ERP community posted in these threads is that they do self manage and oust people with ill intentions, which is a good thing.

But how big of an issue are predators in the ERP community? And in comparison to non-ERP communities. Because predators exist in every kind of community. But I feel an ERP one would be more conscious of it and if they're policing their community then they're more likely to oust them. But I feel /how/ big of a problem they are would dictate how much of a risk it is.

RP is RP and ERP is something else. If you're pretending to own a restaurant there is no way someone can take advantage of you, but when sexual pleasantries are shared, that's where the line gets thinner and it can become dangerous.

ERP is a specific type of RP, which like regular RP has a whole spectrum. But yes, they like to stay differentiated because both represent big communities who prefer what sort of thing they do to be better communicated. A regular RPer when they join an RP that they have expectations of nothing erotic, they just wanna kill that dragon and save a bunch of Ishgardians. So it's good to separate the two.

However "ERP" is still quite broad as a term.

ERP can be as simple and innocent as writing erotica in a roleplay set up. Such as two characters ended up having sex and they're not going to shy away from the details. This could be two heroes kill the dragon, fall in love and consummate it.
ERP can be straight up cybersex with a strong emotional and sexual connection with another person with very loose roleplay elements
ERP can be everything in between.

And some people will make sure to create a differentiation between ERP and Cybersex, but in fairness, people will use the phrase 'ERP' as a euphemism for cybersex.

[Shin96]

I agree. And there is always a risk with age, it's not exclusive to ERP or even virtual interactions but IRL. How many people ask for ID or a birth certificate when flirting in the real world? There are teenagers who look like adults and have the maturity of an adult...but aren't one.

Those that do congregate in places where typically such things are to be expected. If you enter a nightclub you will be asked for your ID card. The right answer would be they should fully well know the age of the opposite person they're flirting with. People that disregard that are careless and the law does not care if you are oblivious to this fact. Everyone is responsible to make sure that doesn't happen and that involves critical thinking. However this is in the confines of the real world and generally speaking it doesn't happen often.

ERP can be as simple and innocent as writing erotica in a roleplay set up. Such as two characters ended up having sex and they're not going to shy away from the details. This could be two heroes kill the dragon, fall in love and consummate it. ERP can be straight up cybersex with a strong emotional and sexual connection with another person with very loose roleplay elements ERP can be everything in between.

ERP means Erotic Roleplay. Romance doesn't necessarily equate sex, that should be obvious. When I hear most people talk about it, it's precisely what you imagine it is. Say it for what it is. It's sexual in nature and often involves an excess use of particular words or actions, basically what you would expect.

And some people will make sure to create a differentiation between ERP and Cybersex, but in fairness, people will use the phrase 'ERP' as a euphemism for cybersex.

Because that's what it is. Logically speaking, people that get "close" are more likely to have cybersex when the threshold has been achieved. I don't know about you, but when I used to flirt with my ex things happened afterwards, it's natural. So I assume biological imperatives do follow the same rules even in a digital space.

All in all, as I have said, if legally consenting adults are doing these things in private, it is not my problem. But do it openly and don't expect people won't report that. I'd just swallow my pride and accept some things are for the best. For all of us.

[Kaurhz]

brevity

Whether or not it is explicitly against the Terms of Service is wholly irrelevant, when you accepted those terms, you also agreed to the following:

YOU ACQUIRE NO OWNERSHIP OR PROPERTY RIGHTS IN ANY CHARACTER OR OTHER IN-GAME VIRTUAL GOOD, AND ARE ONLY LICENSED TO USE SUCH CHARACTERS AND ASSETS ASSOCIATED WITH YOUR FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNT SUBJECT TO THE CONDITIONS SET FORTH IN THE AGREEMENTS. YOU AGREE THAT YOUR FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNT AND ANY VIRTUAL GOODS AND CHARACTERS DO NOT HAVE ANY MONETARY VALUE. SQUARE ENIX MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNTS, CHARACTERS, VIRTUAL GOODS, OR THE SERVICE ALTOGETHER, AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY TO YOU.

I think it is time people did 1+1 and realized that the people enforcing these terms do not think it is appropriate behavior to be advertising mature content in a public space, such as Party Finder that is accessible on a whim for non-mature audiences.

[Saefinn]

Those that do congregate in places where typically such things are to be expected. If you enter a nightclub you will be asked for your ID card. The right answer would be they should fully well know the age of the opposite person they're flirting with. People that disregard that are careless and the law does not care if you are oblivious to this fact. Everyone is responsible to make sure that doesn't happen and that involves critical thinking. However this is in the confines of the real world and generally speaking it doesn't happen often.

Agreed and the law will hold you responsible and really I think we should normalize the idea of that responsibility. I just don't think it's any different between the two scenarios and people shouldn't be prevented in engaging in either activity because of that risk. Whilst people may pick each other up at nightclubs, I drank at a bar aged 17, I went to my first music festival at 16, I have been to gigs before that and you could meet people in all kinds of places where people aren't age restricted and people can get around age restrictions.

ERP means Erotic Roleplay. Romance doesn't necessarily equate sex, that should be obvious. When I hear most people talk about it, it's precisely what you imagine it is. Say it for what it is. It's sexual in nature and often involves an excess use of particular words or actions, basically what you would expect.

No, romance doesn't necessarily mean that, but it can lead to it. And people who write characters and people who roleplay can handle that in a multitude of ways. You can have the "fade-to-black" scenario or you can choose to not shy away from the detail. But if they choose to engage in the detail, then what they are doing is ERPing. This a more innocent use of it, because it's the natural progression of two characters and both parties choose to engage in the erotic detail. This is my point about it being a very broad term. This is a scenario that sometimes happens.

Because that's what it is. Logically speaking, people that get "close" are more likely to have cybersex when the threshold has been achieved. I don't know about you, but when I used to flirt with my ex things happened afterwards, it's natural. So I assume biological imperatives do follow the same rules even in a digital space.

All in all, as I have said, if legally consenting adults are doing these things in private, it is not my problem. But do it openly and don't expect people won't report that. I'd just swallow my pride and accept some things are for the best. For all of us.

Oh I accept that's why. I just mean, there are people who'd rather differentiate between the two, because there is the idea of "self insert" when it comes to RP. It goes back to my point about some people being interested in erotica, it's more the erotica and they have a divide between the writer and the character rather than self inserting themselves into a virtual sexual situation, which is what cybersex is.

Whether or not it is explicitly against the Terms of Service is wholly irrelevant, when you accepted those terms, you also agreed to the following:

And nothing about that even suggests they will moderate you for engaging in ERP. This if anything is a legal clause to protect themselves for using their own discretion. It basically means you have no legal leg to stand on if you get banned or they do something to your account. If anything, if they have this clause, their ToS doesn't /have/ to be so vague.

I think it is time people did 1+1 and realized that the people enforcing these terms do not think it is appropriate behavior to be advertising mature content in a public space, such as Party Finder that is accessible on a whim for non-mature audiences.

And I think what would help would be a statement that clarifies this. Because it's only clear now that we can see that a group of ERP advertisements have been targeted and we can see that by the numerous threads that keep popping up and it's always the same type of venue. The GM's won't tell people what they did wrong, they just have to figure it out and it's not obvious when the ToS is as vague as it is. Even then it doesn't even suggest if ERP itself is a problem, because we're not hearing people getting strikes against their account for ERP, just the people advertising ERP venues.

Just better communication and clarification I think could go a long way.

[Kaurhz]

Brevity.

Yes, it is a legal clause contained in there because their list of illicit and unacceptable activities is not extensive, nor inexhaustible. If they so wish, and if they so deem your behavior is inappropriate then they may warn, suspend, or terminate your account at their leisure. They shouldn't need to specify every activity they deem illicit otherwise they'd spend an eternity rewriting the Terms of Service, when it is abundantly clear that the vast majority of people don't even take the leisure to read them in the first place, despite the very fact they are held in accordance with this standard.

Adults have been integrated into society and the world for nigh on 20+ years with a wealth of world experience and exposure to understand why it is socially unacceptable behavior and the fact that people cannot see why is utterly baffling.

Even this very thread, the GM heading the warning abundantly stated "Please keep in mind the minimum age range when soliciting advertisements on the party finder" - As a paraphrase. I don't know about you, but that seemed abundantly, and unequivocally clear what they did wrong. - But people on this thread the OP themself were more insistent on trying to play the victim crusade. In this particular thread, the OP additionally went on a lovely little tirade of "Did Dalliances offend you, oh my!" - Ironically this shows the OP was fully cognizant of what was being advertised and the real meaning behind the word- Trying ever so hard to use a vague term in order to try and scapegoat out of the restrictions- Which also shows that they were fully and abundantly aware that being specific would have gotten them in trouble. So yeah, they were fully cognizant of their behavior from both the warning from the GM, and from their blatant crusade on this thread- Even prior to the warning itself.

People engaging in direct 1:1 ERP is more than likely not going to be reported, versus openly advertising the activity itself, which has very good visibility for a minor to view and access. 1:1 conversation exchanges are not. So in that regard, these 2 comparisons are not even remotely equivalent. You can argue about the semantics of broadness of the term Erotica all you like, and how it doesn't necessarily equate, but the fact the very definition itself states sexual desire or excitement in itself is reason enough. Now, if you go ahead and use public chat for ERP, then let me know how long it takes for you to get a strike on your account?

The problem here is, you'd ask them to clarify that ERP is explicitly against the terms of service with respect to advertisements, but then people will go from the crusade of no mention at all to the vagueness of the term until they end up with something so specific and so complex in written form that they're incapable of understanding it.

[Shin96]

Text

It basically is painfully obvious what some of them are trying to do. They want to publically display sexual acts in this game and be excused if any casualties are exposed. So far so that they do not seem to care about the safety of how minors are concerned. It's sad, but I didn't expect anything considering how many pages this thread has and the mental gymnastics on full display here.

As SE has explicitly stated, your account can be terminated for any reason. If I was to use the intellectual property of someone else, I damn have to follow their guidelines, even at the expense of my own entertainment. I just don't see why you would do this in FFXIV out of all places. You are running the risk of creating future controversies involving the game, where several media outlets would salivate at the prospect of depicting us in a negative light at the expense of your enjoyment. Not only that, but you fully acknowledge that your actions might intentionally harm minors despite knowing there is no age verification in this game. If you're content with being reported by participating in ERP, then so be it. I won't be defending any of you for all the reasons mentioned.

[Awha]

They should just bite the bullet and u0se discord to setup these venues. Allows for greater control in terms of vetting and requirements to participate. Kinda akin to what they do with rmt clears.

[Saefinn]

Yes, it is a legal clause contained in there because their list of illicit and unacceptable activities is not extensive, nor inexhaustible. If they so wish, and if they so deem your behavior is inappropriate then they may warn, suspend, or terminate your account at their leisure. They shouldn't need to specify every activity they deem illicit otherwise they'd spend an eternity rewriting the Terms of Service, when it is abundantly clear that the vast majority of people don't even take the leisure to read them in the first place, despite the very fact they are held in accordance with this standard.

I agree, they can't cover all bases and their own discretion is needed (which I've said, it's there for their discretion). It's something as an FC leader whose written their own rules of conduct I'm conscious of and we have a discretion clause. But when you have something that's a trend of an issue coming up, clarification goes a long way. The GM's moderating these people can't even tell these people what they've done wrong. The GM of this thread is about the most clear we've seen of GM logs, and even then they back peddled and not entirely clear.

Even this very thread, the GM heading the warning abundantly stated "Please keep in mind the minimum age range when soliciting advertisements on the party finder" - As a paraphrase. I don't know about you, but that seemed abundantly, and unequivocally clear what they did wrong. - But people on this thread the OP themself were more insistent on trying to play the victim crusade. In this particular thread, the OP additionally went on a lovely little tirade of "Did Dalliances offend you, oh my!" - Ironically this shows the OP was fully cognizant of what was being advertised and the real meaning behind the word- Trying ever so hard to use a vague term in order to try and scapegoat out of the restrictions- Which also shows that they were fully and abundantly aware that being specific would have gotten them in trouble. So yeah, they were fully cognizant of their behavior from both the warning from the GM, and from their blatant crusade on this thread- Even prior to the warning itself.

I'm starting to think you're under the impression I'm defending the OP. Look further back in the thread, I was one of the people calling them out on their disingenuous nature and of their obscuring that this was an ERP venue (to the point of arguing the meaning of 'dalliance' to not being sexual when their Carrd straight up advertises ERP) and pointed out that it was obvious why they were moderated. The common denominator of these threads is ERP venues advertising on the PF.

On that specific GM, they also suggested it was just a suggestion and suggested it wasn't why they were pulled up. Whilst I think one can put two and two together that they were hinting, but when you make it seem like something is a suggestion and not their reason for being moderated you're going to expect confusion, their advertisement was for ERP but it didn't have an 18+ tag, I could see somebody reading that as "okay, next time I'll put a warning" on, because that's what other ones you see on the PF do. If they just straight up said "the PF is not for advertising adult related content"


What common denominator we're not seeing is people being moderated for engaging in ERP, which is the subject I am hitting on. And we don't simply know if it is okay for people to engage in it.

I strongly suspect advertising ERP is frowned upon because of the risk to minors and that's probably why they're trying to stop people from using the PF to advertise ERP venues.

But if we're talking about people ERPing in private? This much we don't know and as I previously mentioned there is a quote from a GM hanging around saying it's okay, but what GM's say we sometimes have to take with a pinch of salt.

This is the subject I'm on, whether it's acceptable for people to engage in ERP as an act, not whether it's okay to operate ERP venues and advertise them on PF. And as well as there needing to be clearer ways of them dealing with moderation. A vague ToS I can perfectly understand and a catch all clause to allow them to use their discretion I can understand too, but to me it'd mean the moderation and what people did wrong should be clear just for the simple benefit of people correcting their behaviour. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's not.

People engaging in direct 1:1 ERP are more than likely not going to be reported, versus openly advertising the activity itself, which has very good visibility for a minor to view and access. 1:1 conversation exchanges are not. So in that regard, these 2 comparisons are not even remotely equivalent. You can argue about the semantics of broadness of the term Erotica all you like, and how it doesn't necessarily equate, but the fact the very definition itself states sexual desire or excitement in itself is reason enough. Now, if you go ahead and use public chat for ERP, then let me know how long it takes for you to get a strike on your account?

The problem here is, you'd ask them to clarify that ERP is explicitly against the terms of service with respect to advertisements, but then people will go from the crusade of no mention at all to the vagueness of the term until they end up with something so specific and so complex in written form that they're incapable of understanding it.

Something like:
"If you advertise activities, venues or content that is suitable for adults only then you may find action taken against you".

It's still vague, yes, but it lacks the ambiguity of their last statement. Their last statement amounted to "it's fine as long as it obeys the ToS" and some clarification about an issue where people were moderated in error & that they had the actions against them reversed. When I read it, I thought it just meant that all those RP venues (both regular RP and ERP venues) were targeted by a rogue GM who had been dealt with because they made a mistake, nothing changed and things should return to normal. We've seen threads where people were like "we thought this was addressed, why are we still getting hit?"

What's become apparent since then is that maybe the error was in that they hit non-ERP venues and that ERP venues were the issue. Seeing these threads pop up as somebody who runs a non-ERP non-adult venue of course makes me concerned venues like mine could get hit if we decide to advertise in game (as we've done before), it's only until this thread that I've gained confidence that it's just ERP ones, but even then, I'm not 100%.