Shadowbringers Healer Role: Complaints, Feedback, and Suggestions

[Liam_Harper]

Anyway, the point is that giving SCH and WHM a quicker casting time would just be a bad move. Both of them are already terribly boring and trying to maximize uptime is their only form of optimization. Take that away and there would be absolutely nothing interesting about them.

What I was talking about isn't just tacking on a faster cast time and calling it a day. Healers will always be terribly boring if we don't address weave because you can't just tack on 5 more interesting oGCD's on a clunky turret. There's no room. There are other options for weave slots than the AST cast, but WHM/SCH would need significantly more free ones to have on-demand windows, especially when healing isn't always as predictable as dps if people take avoidable damage or die. The WHM/SCH casting just doesn't support a well designed toolkit. If we ask the devs to keep 2.5 sec endless Glares, we're hindering any potential to have enjoyable gameplay.

What I'm trying to look at is the broader picture, for example if they changed the cast time and then took the opportunity it provided to add an engaging toolkit and interesting oGCD's to weave into those new slots, and I feel most people are stuck using the current healers to judge any potential change. They're also looking at it from the perspective of the current heal design of 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 where if you opened up the way for a better toolkit, you'd ideally have multiple dps abilities, for example your main cast could be 1.5 sec, with some slower big casts, some procs, a mix of things. There's also the fact that GCD heals are often a full cast and in a better designed game we'd need them sometimes. So ideally you wouldn't just be spamming a Malefic clone.

I don't think a minor Ruin II buff and call it a day is a fix at all either. Ruin II is bland and almost an excuse not to give SCH any real weave. They could get creative and reward you with free windows for various things. Extra dots, procs from DoTs, an instant GCD hit that triggers from Aether heals, ED being a harder hitting instant GCD (not saying all those are good ideas, but you get what I mean).

[Lastelli]

What I was talking about isn't just tacking on a faster cast time and calling it a day. Healers will always be terribly boring if we don't address weave because you can't just tack on 5 more interesting oGCD's on a clunky turret. There's no room. There are other options for weave slots than the AST cast, but WHM/SCH would need significantly more free ones to have on-demand windows, especially when healing isn't always as predictable as dps if people take avoidable damage or die. The WHM/SCH casting just doesn't support a well designed toolkit. If we ask the devs to keep 2.5 sec endless Glares, we're hindering any potential to have enjoyable gameplay.

I agree, but we need to be realistic here. They're not going to significantly alter how healers play, unfortunately. 111111 will still be the basic offensive gameplay for healers in the next expansion. That's just how it goes with mmos when they are popular and accessibility becomes the primary focus. Any change will be incremental and marginal. So they're obviously not going to give healers a lower cast time offensive spell so that they can add new and interesting mechanics to 4 different jobs via oGCDs, as much as it pains me to say it.

[inhaledcorn]

I wonder if people realize about how SCH has no problem weaving actions in AoE since, y'know, the AoE is an instant cast? And it's SCH's main damage tool, unlike Ruin II? Amazing how much smoother weaving actions is in AoE pulls than in regular ones since I have plenty of windows to do it.

[Raikai]

My healer of choice is SCH, but I'm so hyped for SGE, just because it looks like a tech-based healer mixing with magick. But at the same time, I'd love SCH getting some attention.

Complaints:
- Fey Union is terrible, I can barely see the impact of it. I wish the Faerie Gauge had more direct impact in whatever the Fairy does, so I wouldn't be forgetting it as the last resort button to press when I don't have anything else available. Maybe an on-demand gauge spender would be nice to have, so I could feel that the resource is actually more meaningful on the gameplay - after all it's the Job's gauge system;

- This is not just for SCH but SMNs as well... The way the pet actions are organized in the UI is kind of convoluted to read, you have to keep double checking 2 different icons to see what activates what;

- The Seraph duration is too short to make the best use of both Consolation charges, especially because it's also a shiel. Actually, if the Seraph was what consumed the gauge instead of Fey Union, it would actually be much more useful, since you'd be able to activate/deactivate on demand and optimize its use;

- Again, a shared complaint with SMN, the pet action delay, why it does even exists anymore? The pets at this rate are basically just cosmetic entities with zero interactions on the field itself, might as well turn them just into the animation of the abilities themselves;

- A complaint for every healer: Give us back the pre-SB dps complexity;

[Grimoire-M]

I don\\'t think a minor Ruin II buff and call it a day is a fix at all either. Ruin II is bland and almost an excuse not to give SCH any real weave. They could get creative and reward you with free windows for various things. Extra dots, procs from DoTs, an instant GCD hit that triggers from Aether heals, ED being a harder hitting instant GCD (not saying all those are good ideas, but you get what I mean).

What distinguishes Ruin II from Malefic is that it presents an opportunity cost on SCH specifically. On its own it is a straight DPS penalty. Situationally it’s a DPS increase. Currently, it’s only an increase when you’re required to move, but only marginally, because its contingent on Energy Drain stacks being dumped with them. But when it is tuned properly so that it discourages hard clipping, it becomes an active DPS increase to use alongside Energy Drain while offering a weave slot for healing actions. That double weave window then opens up the opportunity to give SCH another oGCD DPS action or two that supplements their oGCD heals, where the goal would be to tie the use of Fairy Gauge into their DPS through those actions so that their overall focus becomes juggling this feedback loop between Aetherflow, the fairy, and their DPS oGCDs so that they make the right trade offs to have just enough healing resources when they need it while still maximizing their DPS. From that view, Ruin II actually fits better as a DPS spell just for being able to squeeze more actions into less space as they’re only being used when absolutely necessary.

[inhaledcorn]

What distinguishes Ruin II from Malefic is that it presents an opportunity cost on SCH specifically.

THAT.

That right there.

You're saying that it's okay for Scholar to be punished for doing something that they should be doing. Here's the problem: If every other job had an opportunity cost, then this would be fine. However, other than White Mage, these "punishments" have been largely removed. Lance Charge was once Blood for Blood, which increased the damage you dealt but increased the damage you did. Every DPS that could carry this skill, did. Back in ARR, you actually had to turn off Blood for Blood when taking Bahamut's Earthshakers or else you would probably die. I mean, opportunity cost was already baked into the healer role with Cleric Stance. Scholar was the best at mitigating it because of the fairy which covered the bulk of their healing (Lustrate in ARR was also a flat % which would ignore the healing penalty of Cleric Stance).

But, now? Shadowbringers has done its best to remove any sort of opportunity cost jobs have, but, for some reason, Scholar and White Mage are still rife with this problem. That's the problem. Scholar and White Mage are stuck in a fundamentally different design philosophy.

[Grimoire-M]

THAT.

That right there.

You're saying that it's okay for Scholar to be punished for doing something that they should be doing. Here's the problem: If every other job had an opportunity cost, then this would be fine.

Firstly, I'm not trying to solve the healing taxes with the Ruin II change. I'm trying to facilitate other changes that WOULD be used to solve the healing taxes, while keeping Ruin II, because Ruin II fits Scholar's gameplay loop better than Half AST casting. Ruin II only represents a gain as a weaving tool if it's able to out do hard-clipping oGCDs between Broils alongside the use of other actions. Currently, Energy Drain is the only action that does this. Yes I want more of them. If that's your only concern, then let me remind you that SE isn't going to walk back on pet changes. Not even for a second. SCHs are going to want on-demand no-brainer double weaving in that context. But it shouldn't invalidate Broil in the process.

Lance Charge was once Blood for Blood, which increased the damage you dealt but increased the damage you did. Every DPS that could carry this skill, did. Back in ARR, you actually had to turn off Blood for Blood when taking Bahamut's Earthshakers or else you would probably die. I mean, opportunity cost was already baked into the healer role with Cleric Stance.

Blood for Blood was a problem because Dragoon's MDEF scaling was garbage for a tier and a half AND there wasn't a reason to actually have the penalty in the first place beyond flavor. Cleric Stance was a problem because gear scaling and encounter speed eventually made it not worth keeping around for the sake of improving healer gameplay as a whole. Removing both effects were net-positives. Ruin II is not a problem on that scale. What all three have in common is each were mechanics that at one point were broken because of bad tuning, though I'd argue there's another important distinction. Ruin II doesn't incur a significant gameplay penalty for using it incorrectly. You press Ruin II when you're not supposed to? Oh well, lost 90 potency. That's it. End of Discussion. Compare this suboptimal play to "I'm On A Controller and Can't Right Click The Red Icon Guess I'll Die" or "Raiders and Sylphies Hate Him for Using This One Trick". Punishment by Death it is not. And those two issues mostly deal with Stat Scaling and Encounter Design. Not Class Design.

However, other than White Mage, these "punishments" have been largely removed. Scholar was the best at mitigating it because of the fairy which covered the bulk of their healing (Lustrate in ARR was also a flat % which would ignore the healing penalty of Cleric Stance).

And it was changed to be a flat heal in Heavensward and the world didn't break. Scholar was the top DPS healer for both expansions and Stormblood with a Mandatory slot if you just wanted to exist in speedkilling. But on the topic of White Mage: Yes, I agree. Doesn't have any relevance to Scholar beyond "I want their solution to this problem to feel like a WHM". And they suffer from far more than just hardclipping. They're still two expansions behind in terms of development as far as I'm concerned. But I'm not talking about WHM.

But, now? Shadowbringers has done its best to remove any sort of opportunity cost jobs have, but, for some reason, Scholar and White Mage are still rife with this problem. That's the problem. Scholar and White Mage are stuck in a fundamentally different design philosophy.

I wouldn't say there was an opportunity cost to former DPS rotations. Situational decisions borne from proc management and holes in their design and More to micromanage, sure, but it absolutely has gotten easier to juggle over time. But Blood For Blood doesn't even qualify there when compared to Stance Dancing on either tanks or healers. It's not even a contest. I'd say there were obvious gaps in design focus though. Monk's aged even worse than any healer has. Summoner and Machinist get reworked every expansion and their biggest misses were both in Stormblood, not Shadowbringers. Dragoon and Black Mage are the only ones that don't seem to get screwed over, but they are showing their limits. I think both are due for an evolution and that does have me wary.

That all said. Healer design works better with Tradeoffs. At least in XIV's style of encounters. Because as you maximize their potential and gear up those tradeoffs have the potential to flip from erring on healing to erring on DPS, and I'd like that skill progression curve to remain intact. Hell I want it back on AST through their cards or filler DPS too. I want that philosophy to stay on the roles that care about defensive gameplay, but not at the cost of gameplay fluidity. Hardclipping is just garbage, but I want solutions to hardclipping that are -unique- to each healer. I'm uncertain what WHM's should be, but my gut says to give them an on-demand tool as a last resort, a lossless way to do it on a cooldown a bit shorter than Lilies are, and/or shift Lilies so the DPS tax comes from another Afflatus skill rather than Misery itself, so that Misery can be tuned as an active DPS increase that aligns with SCH and AST's respective raid cooldowns and therefore is used to compensate for WHM's lack of raid utility.

[Liam_Harper]

I agree, but we need to be realistic here. They're not going to significantly alter how healers play, unfortunately. 111111 will still be the basic offensive gameplay for healers in the next expansion. That's just how it goes with mmos when they are popular and accessibility becomes the primary focus. Any change will be incremental and marginal. So they're obviously not going to give healers a lower cast time offensive spell so that they can add new and interesting mechanics to 4 different jobs via oGCDs, as much as it pains me to say it.

Regardless, there's no point in giving feedback that supports and cements a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 design. I'd prefer whatever gradual changes they make to start leaning towards smoother gameplay so they have a foundation to build on, rather than the Devs thinking "nope, can't add more utility, oGCD, procs or engagement because we're definitely keeping 2 button dps forever, there's no room to add more, and the players seem ok with that".

[Ariel_Valmont]

Cleric stance wasn’t interesting satisfying or fun

[ItMe]

Cleric stance wasn’t interesting satisfying or fun

It was quite the barrier to entry too.
Out of all the people in my FC (around 10) only 2 of them had even touched healer (one out of a sense of obligation) and it was largely because of cleric stance.
Now that cleric stance is gone most of my FC heals and loves it. If they don't main it, it's their secondary job.