Hotkey Bloat

[Sealish]

So I just started playing dance and I feel like this class suffers from this the most out of what I have tried playing, but other classes do too so I decided to post it in general to get opinions or to see if I am alone in thinking this.

I feel like if you have a proc that gives you access to an ability that replaces another ability in a rotation 100% of the time (there is absolutely no situation where you would use the non-proc), the base ability should morph into the proc instead of it being a separate keybind.

For Dancer, this comes into play with their basic 1-2 combo for both single and AoE, as well as Feather Dance.

If you have a proc, you never use the base ability because then you chance wasting a proc. Given that Feather Dance 3 as well as the powered up combo moves are direct replacements and upgrades with no downside to using when procced, I feel like the base abilities should just become them.

It would save 5 hotkey slots, and would not take play complexity away from the class since there is no decision in when to use the proc.

This is different from say Red Mage with Verfire/stone where you may have both procced and have to choose which one to use. Jolt should not change to the proc because a potential choice still exists.

Thoughts?

[Rongway]

It would save 5 hotkey slots, and would not take play complexity away from the class since there is no decision in when to use the proc.

This is different from say Red Mage with Verfire/stone where you may have both procced and have to choose which one to use. Jolt should not change to the proc because a potential choice still exists.

There is a decision to make: the right one or the wrong one.

Besides, DNC has one of the sparsest bar sets out of all the jobs. Could some consolidation happen? Yes--though it would have an effect on gameplay by eliminating the wrong choices. Does DNC need the extra five spaces? No.

I absolutely support consolidating buttons when one button is 100% unusuable while another button is active, but just because you would be completely wrong to use the un-flourished weaponskill when the flourish is available doesn't mean you can't be bad and make the wrong decision. This isn't like SMN, which does need quite a bit of button consolidation because it basically has three different flavors of super saiyin phases, and it's not like RDM which has so many buttons that it needs to combine Verflare, Verholy, and Scorch with other buttons to avoid overflowing bars.

[Vyrerus]

It's been a while since I played Dancer, but I'd say the reason they can't and shouldn't consolidate the procs is due to the nature of combos. I can't actually recall if Dancer combos are interrupted if you use the proc immediately, but if they are, then the order of using the skills has to be Combo > Proc. If they consolidate the buttons, this doesn't allow you to save procs(and also means they have to set each combo to also combo off the proc skill), and later on you will get a skill that causes you to gain every proc simultaneously, allowing you to do your highest damage GCDs outside of steps back to back in any order.

[Rosenstrauch]

I can't actually recall if Dancer combos are interrupted if you use the proc immediately, but if they are, then the order of using the skills has to be Combo > Proc.

The Dancer combo is only interrupted if you start the opposite combo, ie switching from the ranged combo to melee, or melee combo to ranged. Your procs don't interrupt your combo, and neither does Saber Dance.

That said, while there might not be no downside to dropping the weaponskill procs, shoving Fan Dance III into Fan Dance I+II's button would be a bad idea. The reason being that while Fan Dance I and II have a shared cooldown, Fan Dance III does not. If Fan Dance III replaced I+II when it procced, it would also have to go on cooldown at the same time, making it harder to double weave.

Also, considering how tight Dancer's burst phase can be, there may not be any benefit to actually doing this. It's not as if freeing up 4-5 hotkeys will necessarily free up space in your rotation for brand new weaponskills or abilities, since Dancer wants to save their Esprit Gauge and Fan Dance stacks for Technical Step.

[Rongway]

It's been a while since I played Dancer, but I'd say the reason they can't and shouldn't consolidate the procs is due to the nature of combos. I can't actually recall if Dancer combos are interrupted if you use the proc immediately, but if they are, then the order of using the skills has to be Combo > Proc. If they consolidate the buttons, this doesn't allow you to save procs(and also means they have to set each combo to also combo off the proc skill), and later on you will get a skill that causes you to gain every proc simultaneously, allowing you to do your highest damage GCDs outside of steps back to back in any order.

Procs do not interrupt combos, so you could, for example, do something like this:

Cascade (no proc) > Fountain (proc Fountainfall) > Cascade (proc Reverse Cascade) > Reverse Cascade > Fountainfall > Fountain (proc Fountainfall)

which in terms of buttons looks something like this:



Here's what that same sequence would look like with button consolidation (excuse the numbers):


Knowing the devs, I'd wager they think this looks confusing and consequently consciously chose not to consolidate these buttons. I'm especially inclined to believe this once you take into account Flourish, which instantly procs all flourishes. In the unconsolidated version, it's much easier to tell whether or not you have any procs that will be wasted because there's a clear difference between dimmed buttons and active dashed outlined butons. In the consolidated version, you have to exert more cognitive effort because there are never dimmed buttons. Is the second dashed outlined button a proc or just the base second step in the combo? It would take longer to learn how to screen for Flourish with that system.

[Rongway]

That said, while there might not be no downside to dropping the weaponskill procs, shoving Fan Dance III into Fan Dance I+II's button would be a bad idea. The reason being that while Fan Dance I and II have a shared cooldown, Fan Dance III does not. If Fan Dance III replaced I+II when it procced, it would also have to go on cooldown at the same time, making it harder to double weave.

This much is not a problem, actually. Actions that share a button need not have the same cooldown. See: Nastrond and Gierskogul

[Raltar]

Of all of the jobs that actually have button bloat, you go with Dancer, one of the jobs that has the least amount of buttons.

[Nafreyu]

I was laughing quietly to myself, and then louder when someone else noticed. ^.^

[Sealish]

Of all of the jobs that actually have button bloat, you go with Dancer, one of the jobs that has the least amount of buttons.

I went with Dancer because while playing it I specifically thought "Huh, I feel like there are 5 keybinds here that could be entirely done away with without changing how the job plays at all", and while there are other classes with this problem too, I felt it immediately upon unlocking the class. It may not be the worst class with button bloat, but the feeling was immediate.

I get what others here have said about how just because there is never a reason to not use the proc, you can still make the choice to not use it or not see it, and making that decision to use it is part of learning to play the class well. That is fair. I guess I just personally like to have my skill bar as optimized as possible and see it as a bit silly that something should take two buttons when the two skills are not only linked, but also mutually exclusive (in that when the upgraded one is available, there is absolutely no situation where you would choose to use the normal one which you will only use when you literally cannot use the upgraded one).

And I think that although this change would make lower skilled players make less mistakes, it is true, those mistakes are ones that they would stop making relatively quickly anyways. I don't think it would make the class any "easier" for a mid-high tier player to play, it would just make it more physically comfortable hand-wise.

As for being able to tell if you have a proc, you know that you get all 5 with flourish and so it is easy to count if you have used one or not. If you need to look, the skill icon will have changed. If you need more than that, they could always just make the outline for a proc and a combo a different colour.

I don't think the class NEEDS this change. It is admittedly pretty easy to play as is... but I do think that it would be a nice QoL change. For other classes with this same situation as well.

[Rongway]

As for being able to tell if you have a proc, you know that you get all 5 with flourish and so it is easy to count if you have used one or not. If you need to look, the skill icon will have changed. If you need more than that, they could always just make the outline for a proc and a combo a different colour.

I don't mean for after activating Flourish. I mean, you want to use up all your procs before Flourish comes off cooldown so that you don't overwrite them with Flourish. Your goal in the last few seconds before Flourish becomes available should be to make sure you have five dimmed buttons. This would take more concentration if the buttons were consolidated.