Why is the Maturity Lvl of People Playing this game so much higher than that of WoW?

[Penthea]

Funny how expecting a certain level of competency is being a jerk, but wasting their time or insulting them is perfecting fine...

Some people need to adjust their expectations for the content they're doing. Most do but some don't. Some think the sort of performance required in savage should also be done in normal mode even though that's far above the requirement to complete the content. The flip side happens too. Some people think that if what they do in normal mode is fine then it should be fine in savage even though that could be below the requirement. There are people on both sides who need to adjust their expectations. Not saying you are one of these people, just speaking generally.

And some people need to accept the fact that bad players are unavoidable. They're in every single game. Sure it may suck if you feel that you can't criticise them openly due to how SE views harassment, but lets face it; those who want to learn will learn at some point with or without your input, and those who don't won't ever improve no matter what they're told. And anyone who thinks being able to openly criticise would improve things I can tell you from my time in WoW being able to openly criticise people doesn't magically make the playerbase more skilled. There are plenty of terrible players in WoW.

[Fluxating]

Some people need to adjust their expectations for the content they're doing. Most do but some don't. Some think the sort of performance required in savage should also be done in normal mode even though that's far above the requirement to complete the content. The flip side happens too. Some people think that if what they do in normal mode is fine then it should be fine in savage even though that could be below the requirement. There are people on both sides who need to adjust their expectations. Not saying you are one of these people, just speaking generally.

And some people need to accept the fact that bad players are unavoidable. They're in every single game. Sure it may suck if you feel that you can't criticise them openly due to how SE views harassment, but lets face it; those who want to learn will learn at some point with or without your input, and those who don't won't ever improve no matter what they're told. And anyone who thinks being able to openly criticise would improve things I can tell you from my time in WoW being able to openly criticise people doesn't magically make the playerbase more skilled. There are plenty of terrible players in WoW.

True, everyone learns differently and at different speeds, some try to improve and see very little results while others just flat out refuse. You're also right that those players will always exist, and with the player base growing they are becoming more common. however I don't believe that expecting a level 80 player to know what a stack marker is wrong, that being met with hostility for offering advice to someone who repeatedly fails mechanics is somehow ok or even accepted, that being fed up and speaking out about that subset of the playerbase somehow puts you in the wrong.

I used to really enjoy helping out new players back during ARR and HW, now I rarely even bother as it hardly seems worth the time to try.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Hoo boy, just come back to this thread after few days and it turns into 'elitism vs casualism'. Well anyway...

... however I don't believe that expecting a level 80 player to know what a stack marker is wrong, that being met with hostility for offering advice to someone who repeatedly fails mechanics is somehow ok or even accepted, that being fed up and speaking out about that subset of the playerbase somehow puts you in the wrong.

I used to really enjoy helping out new players back during ARR and HW, now I rarely even bother as it hardly seems worth the time to try.

While I strongly agree with your stance here, sometimes there's just nothing better we can do but to stay silent because how differently SE views 'harassment'-cases compared to us lots. It is ingrained in their culture that being very direct are often seen as being rude. They would prefer to just back off from the scene without expressing their discomfort too obviously. This is why i.e. savage DF actually works in JP DC (works, as in letting the queue pops). Whether the run is a success or not is another different story; but when things go awry, all they say will be something like "Ah, I don't think this duty can be finished with this party... let's just leave and try another time." before voting to disband and call it a day. Rather than telling people upfront, they would rather leave players having some 'self reflection' moments to find their mistakes.

NA DC (Idk about EU) obviously comes with different culture ingrained in their mind so ... *BAM*, surprise
Unless SE decides to take account of this difference, we're pretty much stuck to what we have right now (and have to deal with sheer amount of passive aggressiveness when things goes south, if any at all.)

[Ammokkx]

Hoo boy, just come back to this thread after few days and it turns into 'elitism vs casualism'. Well anyway...

rule 1 of GD:

Given enough time, every thread turns into elite vs. casual.

[Raelsar]

rule 1 of GD:

Given enough time, every thread turns into elite vs. casual.

First linked this in another thread, but it does have some relevance to this discussion.

First off, "the chart":

Source: https://quanticfoundry.com/2015/12/2...g-motivations/

Now, the three "high-level" groups:

• Action-Social (red group)
• Mastery-Achievement (blue group)
• Immersion-Creativity (yellow group)

And to quickly summarize, "Mastery-Achievement" is the "game-space"; it's the activities outlined by the game itself and all directly associated elements. All the other groups interact in this particular area... and if we want to get technical, "hardcore" players should belong to this group as they're the ones who get the most into the granular details of the game itself.

But the casual-hardcore divide we commonly see is NOT linked to this group.

To tell the truth, it's more of a misnomer. The "casual-hardcore divide" is more closely related to the other two groups, or to be more specific, why they are both interacting in the "game-space". Those who are specifically interested in the game details purely for the sake of doing so are a bit rare.

Lacking space here, but:
"Action-Social" corresponds to the "hardcore" crowd.
"Immersion-Creativity" corresponds to the "casual" crowd.

---

Moving away from the discussion over the divide, WoW and FFXIV actually frame a distinct separation between the "Action-Social" and "Immersion-Creativity" groups.

WoW caters to the "Action-Social" group, especially with how the game has evolved. Considering Blizzard's forte outside of WoW is competitive online games (RTS games beforehand, other genres now), this is probably unsurprising. However, due to the game being the "breakout hit" for the MMORPG genre, it attracted all groups -- including a large contingent of the "Immersion-Creativity" group, who were mostly interested in getting immersed into the world itself. But over the years, they've increasingly neglected this group.

FFXIV caters to the "Immersion-Creativity" group, and for good reason -- this is the "traditional RPG crowd", doubly so when it comes to JRPGs. While they do have a bit for the "Action-Social" group with high difficulty content, the game is clearly not built around it like WoW now is.

In any case, because "competition" is a strong factor for the Action-Social group... proper behaviour and politeness aren't always a priority. Unless it serves a specific purpose for them, they won't bother with it. On the other hand, the Immersion-Creativity group tend to enjoy quiet and solitary activities; they're naturally more polite and courteous, possibly because that's how they want to be treated themselves and will extend the same behaviour to others.