What/Who will be the 6.0 expansion final boss? And what about the raid bosses?

[linayar]

Personally I've never found Hydaelyn to be sympathetic or trustworthy. She's responsible for the current state of the world - which the writer's themselves, in interviews, have claimed to be a bad thing. She sought to hide the truth of the world's origins, completely snuff out the memories and lives of a proud and ancient race. She claims to love 'all' of her children, yet only saved the one that benefitted her when the Isle of Val was plunged into the Lifestream. Namely Krile. She had another of her 'blessed' sacrifice themselves to be her puppet in the form of Minfilia. Who was depicted as being bound in thorny chains in one of the art pieces for a content patch...

For a while, a lot of her fans were convinced that she was some sort of benevolent goddess guiding the Warrior of Light to always do good. The game has actively embraced nuance and hammered home the fact that Light is not always good and Dark is not always bad.

I still remember someone making a thread on the lore forum speculating, long before Shadowbringers, that Hydaelyn might be a Primal. That poster received a lot of bile and smug mockery because that could never be the case, supposedly. Then 5.0 came and revealed the theory to be correct.

In short, maybe it's best to be cautious with absolutes?

I'd also note that neither Hydaelyn or Zodiark currently appear on the character popularity lists in any region. The likes of Emet and Zenos, however...do. With that in mind, there's a good chance both Hydaelyn and Zodiark will 'just' be Primals and little else when we confront them directly or they're dealt with off screen.

I don't think you have to go to absolutes to still see Hydaelyn as an ally. Yes, she is a primal, and so it's not like she doesn't have her own prerogatives. But, in the grand scheme of what we know the Ascians are trying to make Zodiark do, Hydaelyn should still be the WoL's preference. That doesn't mean the WoL is totally dependent on her, as the WoL still lives his life without actively seeking guidance from Hydaelyn.

[Shougun]

So, first things first, I don't know how the ending will turn out, which excites me even more.

That said, what I have a problem with is people wanting Zenos to go after Hydaelyn and forcing us to go after Zodiark. That, to me, doesn't make any sense if Zenos knows of our association with Hydaelyn. He wants to fight against us, not take over our source of power (at least one of).

Also, while I'm aware of the idea of balance, Hydaelyn was summoned to keep Zodiark in check. Which means, unless they merge or are both destroyed, balance in this case means Hydaelyn being strong enough to do exactly what she was summoned to do, especially since Zodiark being stronger potentially means the deaths of existing lives. So if balance is the ideal, and Zenos as the antagonist wants to destroy that balance, then he would go after Zodiark to stand against the combined force of Hydaelyn-WoL.

I think if you sit on the second sentence longer it might feel better. Zenos goes after our power source. That's quite logical. Then we've got to rush and make it happen because Zodiark is Kefka'ing about the landscape. Although I wouldn't say going for easier power first isn't a bad idea (either way I honestly feel like "yeah sure okay", if he went after our source vs if he found his own first). Maybe there is personal joy out of stealing ours first. Perhaps if goes after Zodiark first it stirs Hydaelyn more, so by keeping her more dossil he can detach and claim her first (over waking up the mothership entirely who then automatically looks to us to be her champion).

As for the third section true that it could be totally different, I'm just spitballing the twist because I personally do not find good vs evil very fascinating as I don't think it represents most situations (I mean there are of course people who've got a screw loose and just really don't and cannot care about others, but that's not the norm). They're palpable stories but it's just not super interesting, to myself (so I am purposefully trying to find means to mess that up). But lets go on that line, so say Hydaelyn was made to keep Zodiark in check- right, right. How do you keep order in check? Chaos (freedom), which also goes inline that she has the power to divide (while Zodiark has the power to make things whole). That she was made to counter Zodiark doesn't really disrupt my suggestion that they may represent greater concepts than Zodiark bad and Hydaelyn is simply anti-zodiark. Then on Zenos, well I think Zenos is literally one of those screw loose people lol (which is probably why he isn't my favorite enemy)- so it really doesn't matter to Zenos about balance, the dude has been pretty frank to us in what he enjoys about life and right now he wants to make us dance with him. If anything he might find it more enjoyable that he takes our mother and we have to join with Zodiark (father) in order to compete. It also might offer decent imagery as we in effect have to choose between saving everything or not beating up 'mother'. Like if some poltergeist took the body of a loved one and began to cause massive issues, do you stop it or do you bend knee?

As for the first section, it really could go any which way at the end lol- that is interesting (and good)! I only imagine that they both go into an eternal rest as a way to set up an entire new saga, but it is not needed to do that so maybe not (I'm definitely not certain on any outcome).

[linayar]

Zenos goes after our power source. That's quite logical.

It's not logical given what we know of Zenos's character and his purpose to fight us.

As for the third section true that it could be totally different, I'm just spitballing the twist because I personally do not find good vs evil very fascinating as I don't think it represents most situations (I mean there are of course people who've got a screw loose and just really don't and cannot care about others, but that's not the norm). They're palpable stories but it's just not super interesting, to myself (so I am purposefully trying to find means to mess that up). But lets go on that line, so say Hydaelyn was made to keep Zodiark in check- right, right. How do you keep order in check? Chaos (freedom). That she was made to counter Zodiark doesn't really disrupt my suggestion that they may represent greater concepts than Zodiark bad and Hydaelyn is simply anti-zodiark. Then on Zenos, well I think Zenos is literally one of those screw loose people lol- so it really doesn't matter to Zenos about balance, the dude has been pretty frank to us in what he enjoys about life and right now he wants to make us dance with him. IF anything he might find it more enjoyable that he takes our mother and we have to join with Zodiark (father) in order to compete. It also might offer decent imagery as we in effect have to choose between saving everything or not beating up 'mother'. Like if some poltergeist took the body of a loved one and began to cause massive issues, do you stop it or do you bend knee?

You don't even need to frame it as good vs evil if you don't want to. We still have two opposing sides.

My point is that the WoL is connected with Hydaelyn. So if Zenos goes after one of them (Hydaelyn or Zodiark), and again, we don't even know if that's where they're going with the story, then it would make more sense for him to go after Zodiark.

Zenos may be unhinged, but he still is consistent with his purpose.

[Lauront]

Right, but the WoL does have dealings with Hydaelyn, again showing that the WoL is not Azem.

No one has said that they are identical to Azem. They nonetheless harbour a fragment of their soul, and are now learning more of their ancient self. So you're disputing a point that's not even in contention while failing to grasp the significance of the link, all at once.

Subverting expectation is a bad excuse to not have a payoff to the end of a 10-year running storyline.

It's not an "excuse" for anything. It is a potential story direction and a narrow view of "payoff" is not an excuse to limit it. They have set another potential "payoff" and that is seeing to the final wish of the ancients.

Okay. Do we know there are false pretenses? What are they and do they negatively affect our current good relationship with Hydaelyn?

Yes, we have been directly shown they are false pretences. The biggest is that her account of the origin of the world is simply false, for one. For another, the calling from her is nothing special but the result of an automated process. She did not reveal the true origin or nature of the Ascians. Elidibus further gave an indication that it is her and her summoners' intention to conceal the truth of the ancient world at the end of 5.0, a theme that runs counter to the remembrance one now taking place. There may be forthcoming justifications as to why, e.g. she may not simply be privy to such knowledge as a Primal, but it unravels the notion of any special connection to her. Out of necessity the MC has drawn on her power, but they also lacked a full picture of what was going on.

You can continue "having a problem" with what others want, I suppose, albeit it's not really going to make much of a difference to what I want.

I don't think you have to go to absolutes to still see Hydaelyn as an ally. Yes, she is a primal, and so it's not like she doesn't have her own prerogatives. But, in the grand scheme of what we know the Ascians are trying to make Zodiark do, Hydaelyn should still be the WoL's preference. That doesn't mean the WoL is totally dependent on her, as the WoL still lives his life without actively seeking guidance from Hydaelyn.

Unless the singular Ascian pursuing chaos for its own sake surmises that she might be a better target to focus his attention on.

[Shougun]

It's not logical given what we know of Zenos's character and his purpose to fight us.

You don't even need to frame it as good vs evil if you don't want to. We still have two opposing sides.

My point is that the WoL is connected with Hydaelyn. So if Zenos goes after one of them (Hydaelyn or Zodiark), and again, we don't even know if that's where they're going with the story, then it would make more sense for him to go after Zodiark.

Zenos may be unhinged, but he still is consistent with his purpose.

How is it not? The dude just wants epic fights, lol- I'd like to see a parody of him doing 'gamer' talk like some toxic kid XD.....

Anyway- Goes after Hydaelyn, causes the hero distress, now the hero has to fight his own mother (sort of). Hero is forced to seek out Zodiark, which Zenos may actually be fine with and just wait (because epic fightz brah).

Maximum damage both emotionally and physically while still allowing for the fight of all time.

It's not like Zenos prays to the shrine of Zodiark (of course he wants more and more power, but going after Hydaelyn is still power). Also consider that Hydaelyn has once won against Zodiark already, honestly if I had to pick my power source at this point I'd be picking Hydaelyn because Zodiark has already lost once. Why is it logical for Zenos to bet on the losing horse? Doesn't matter if I was on the good side or not, Hydaelyn has proven herself once already. Logically you'd pick the winning horse for your power (which also happens to damage your enemy in a 'wonderful' way, if you're into emotional damage).

[KizuyaKatogami]

How is it not? The dude just wants epic fights, lol- I'd like to see a parody of him doing 'gamer' talk like some toxic kid XD.....

Anyway- Goes after Hydaelyn, causes the hero distress, now the hero has to fight his own mother (sort of). Hero is forced to seek out Zodiark, which Zenos may actually be fine with and just wait (because epic fightz brah).

Maximum damage both emotionally and physically while still allowing for the fight of all time.

It's not like Zenos prays to the shrine of Zodiark (of course he wants more and more power, but going after Hydaelyn is still power). Also consider that Hydaelyn has once won against Zodiark already, honestly if I had to pick my power source at this point I'd be picking Hydaelyn because Zodiark has already lost once. Why is it logical for Zenos to bet on the losing horse? Doesn't matter if I was on the good side or not, Hydaelyn has proven herself once already. Logically you'd pick the winning horse for your power (which also happens to damage your enemy in a 'wonderful' way, if you're into emotional damage).

This is exactly it! Hydaelyn has more power, so why wouldn’t Zenos go after her instead. If anything it makes more sense for that to happen than to go to extreme lengths to get zodiark.

[Bright-Flower]

We don't really know if it would be easier for Fandaniel to go after Zodiark or Hydaelyn.

[linayar]

No one has said that they are identical to Azem. They nonetheless harbour a fragment of their soul, and are now learning more of their ancient self. So you're disputing a point that's not even in contention while failing to grasp the significance of the link, all at once.

What I'm disputing is disregarding the WoL's connection with Hydaelyn because of Azem.

It's not an "excuse" for anything. It is a potential story direction and a narrow view of "payoff" is not an excuse to limit it. They have set another potential "payoff" and that is seeing to the final wish of the ancients.

Which ancients? The ones that want to bring back the dead? Because we've rejected that wish in Shadowbringers. Or are they the ones that want to keep the status quo? That's what we have with Hydaelyn.

Yes, we have been directly shown they are false pretences. The biggest is that her account of the origin of the world is simply false, for one. For another, the calling from her is nothing special but the result of an automated process. She did not reveal the true origin or nature of the Ascians. Elidibus further gave an indication that it is her and her summoners' intention to conceal the truth of the ancient world at the end of 5.0, a theme that runs counter to the remembrance one now taking place. There may be forthcoming justifications as to why, e.g. she may not simply be privy to such knowledge as a Primal, but it unravels the notion of any special connection to her. Out of necessity the MC has drawn on her power, but they also lacked a full picture of what was going on.

Our relationship has never been based on Hydaelyn's history. What we do know is that the WoL and the Scions agree with the people who summoned Hydaelyn to keep the existence of the sundered.

You can continue "having a problem" with what others want, I suppose, albeit it's not really going to make much of a difference to what I want.

Obviously.

Unless the singular Ascian pursuing chaos for its own sake surmises that she might be a better target to focus his attention on.

Fandaniel could be an interesting factor, but for now, Fandaniel does what Zenos wants.

How is it not? The dude just wants epic fights, lol-

Yes, and he may not get that if he messes with us. He doesn't want to cause us be in distress. He wants us to continue to grow in power while he grows his own way.

[Shougun]

Yes, and he may not get that if he messes with us. He doesn't want to cause us be in distress. He wants us to continue to grow in power while he grows his own way.

I guess it depends on how much you think he is willing to risk and how much faith he has in us. If he has a lot of faith in us then it would make sense to go through Hydaelyn, if he thinks we're going to fall apart before the tango then I guess not.

I think he likes us quite a bit though and has high expectations of us lol.

This is exactly it! Hydaelyn has more power, so why wouldn’t Zenos go after her instead. If anything it makes more sense for that to happen than to go to extreme lengths to get zodiark.

Yeah if I was going for "I want to win" then I'd go after Hydaelyn both because it messes with the enemy and also because it appears she's the winner choice. And is already free... haha, as you said having to do work to free Zodiark just so you can then eat him XD.

[Bright-Flower]

Fandaniel is the one that approached Zenos, for his own reasons. Whatever Fandaniel's up to I doubt it's all in the service of what Zenos wants, at most what Zenos wants fits into his plans.