Opinions: Should tanks work for aggro?

[ArianeEwah]

If it walks and talks like a duck...

Oh, are we going down that road now?

If I wanted to work I wouldn’t be playing a game...

So, pressing 1-1-1-1-1... is what you call "work"? How about making an effort? I dunno about you, but when I want to play a game, I DO make an effort to understand and master it.
If I wanted to "play a game" and get instant reward without doing anything, or the absolute bare minimum, I would look for one that grants me max gear and kills the final boss in 1 go by just pressing right.

The current stystem of enmity generation for tanks is fine

If we go by your definition then yes, why pressing more than 1-1-1, right?! But it's not! "Press X to hold aggro 24/7" is NOT good design. Enmity management is part of a tanks duty. Make it plain and dull, and the tank role becomes plain and dull, too! At the very least, it shouldn't have been 10x multiplier without any drawback. Being able to hold aggro with 1-2-3 vs a dps and their item level is 100 above yours, shouldn't be a thing (true story btw).

Tanks are already the least represented role for the most part, do you think more people will be attracted to the role

the devs should be able to think of alternative methods

You mean like the other changes of passive mitigation, simple dps rotation, boss auto-positioning all while enmity management is pretty much also passive? How much more do you want the dev team to "attact" people to the tank role? From every (veteran) tank I've heard that those changes have made tanks more dull, you don't even plan your mitigation tools anymore! No tank buster? No cooldown! Tank buster? ALL the cooldowns!
And from all the newer tanks I've heard the question: "What about aggro?" "Don't worry about, just press your tank stance once, and you are done!"

Sorry, but not sorry. This is probably the lamest adaptation of tank duties I've ever seen, not even WoW messed up THIS bad! And yes, they also had a 10x multiplier once, but in WoW tanks also dealt way less damage. And they changed it to a 4x for the next expac. So, not only is SE basically repeating others (BlizzE) mistakes (and don't tell, they didn't know, there is no way) instead of learning from them, they also double (or triple) down on those mistakes and simple, plain choices. What am I paying 15$ per month for again? A low effort design? Homogenisation, simplification... "Jesus, take the wheel"? They are treating us like babies in a wheelchair on straight rails while holding our hands. What the freaking heck is fine about that?

The previous iteration wasn't even difficult in general. It had its drawbacks! But now we can't even play around those, because they are stacked into our passive traits. I prefer having a choice!

[Zefirez]

Tanks are already the least represented role for the most part, do you think more people will be attracted to the role, when they have to deal with DPS stroking their epeen by making it difficult for the tank to hold enmity?

Yes they will and in droves. Because the current situation is the very cause of tank drought.
Tanking is generally a manly role and we men don't want equality or safety. We want a challenge and an opportunity to rise above the rest!

Old tanking system offered those. Precisely because things were so hectic, was there such a gap between a great tank and a bad one.
The former was a HUGE contributor to party's dps (and general success), because DPS jobs could go hog wild with him at helm and not get focused and slaughtered seconds later.
Bad tank on the other hand meant that party had to be very, VERY careful about what they attack and how much damage they output.

Needless to say being a good tank meant major preparation and dedication, but it was rewarded with huge bragging rights, general respect and clear sense of your contribution and value.
Nowadays anyone can hop on a tank, pop enmity stance and perfectly hold aggro almost 95% regardless of weather they're a on top of their game or running around like headless chickens...

There's no challenge nor glory to be had with this, and instead of feeling like the leader and commander tank is feeling more like the benchwarming loser,
called yet again to "take one for the team", while everyone else is actually having fun..

[Lyth]

Neither of these are particularly compelling.

In the old system, the 'gap' was an opinion gap and a knowledge gap. In ARR, many people felt that parry was an important stat, because tanks are there to absorb damage for their team. In Heavensward, there were many players who believed that stacking STR accessories in place of VIT made you a less effective tank. Even as late as Stormblood, there were players who believed that you were obliged to stay in tank stance for the best interests of your team. So even by merely not subscribing to the 'classical' perception of tanks automatically bumped you into the top 50% of tanks. I mean, it's a bit like entering a competition where the majority of people don't know what the win condition is. It was like this for healers as well. You could be 'good' without actually having any semblance of mechanical skill, just by being in the know.

In the new system, tanks are melee dps. The boss auto-positions and tanks itself. There isn't really any significant defensive threat to you, outside of remembering to press your quicktime event keys (invuln + swap) when the boss charges their special attack. This wouldn't be too bad, except for the fact that there are real melee dps jobs out there which do more damage, and have more technically complex rotations. So tanking rightfully becomes perceived as a low skill role, where the main differential in performance depends on how close you live to the servers. I mean, if you're looking for skill differential and having an impact, it probably makes more sense to switch to the new melee dps when it comes out (especially if it's a Thavnairian themed Mystic Knight!)

If you want tanks to feel relevant, they have to control positioning and movement. That's what makes us different from every other role in the game. Enmity really has nothing to do with it, as anything that tests your ability to generate enmity also tests your ability to do dps. You want to maximise your dps while dynamically repositioning a boss and your team to safety. You want to be able to dodge attacks around a boss without disrupting your team's positionals, but that only becomes a meaningful challenge when the boss isn't cast animation-locked for five minutes.

[Ariel_Valmont]

[QUOTE=ArianeEwah;5518112]Oh, are we going down that road now?/QUOTE]


You asked if I was being sarcastic, and in the case of work, I was, hence if it walks and talks like a duck...

I don’t miss stance dancing, 90% of the tanks I encounter can’t even keep enmity for the first pack in a two pack pull, with the current system.

[Ariel_Valmont]

...tanks to feel relevant, they have to control positioning and movement. That's what makes us different from every other role in the game. Enmity really has nothing to do with it, as anything that tests your ability to generate enmity also tests your ability to do dps. You want to maximise your dps while dynamically repositioning a boss and your team to safety. You want to be able to dodge attacks around a boss without disrupting your team's positionals, but that only becomes a meaningful challenge when the boss isn't cast animation-locked for five minutes.

Basically this, tanking doesn’t suffer from not having to “work” to hold enmity, it’s stale fight design and stagnant bosses, and hallway dungeons with no consequences. You could have fights where the boss has enmity dumps, and requires mechanics to be resolved before you can pick it back up, you could put the tank in situations where it’s unable to tank the boss and then has to pick it back up, etc etc there are multitudes of ways to make tanking engaging and feel like you are actually in charge of enmity, without resorting to an antiquated system that disrespectful players can grief new/under geared players with.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Basically this, tanking doesn’t suffer from not having to “work” to hold enmity, it’s stale fight design and stagnant bosses, and hallway dungeons with no consequences. You could have fights where the boss has enmity dumps, and requires mechanics to be resolved before you can pick it back up, you could put the tank in situations where it’s unable to tank the boss and then has to pick it back up, etc etc there are multitudes of ways to make tanking engaging and feel like you are actually in charge of enmity, without resorting to an antiquated system that disrespectful players can grief new/under geared players with.

Exactly. I think a lot of the tank and healer unhappiness can directly be attributed to fight design that feels more like a check list than actually designing fights to engage the tanks and healers.

[Sorzai]

I haven't tanked in heavensward or did any end game content, but I find tanking in dungeons way too easy. The only difference between you and a dps is that one skill that generates emnity.
It would be much more engaging for a tank to have fight to hold its emnity and bosses to have emnity dump skill. That would change the whole dynamic of the fight. But the issue with this is would be the barrier to entry might be too daunting for new players.

[Marxam]

The previous iteration wasn't even difficult in general. It had its drawbacks! But now we can't even play around those, because they are stacked into our passive traits. I prefer having a choice!

Finally someone else who gets it. I agree this is the laziest iteration of tanks/heals QoL to date. The tank stances should never have been reduced to a trait and I will always defend the concept of a Tank stance and an OT stance with enmity combos because it allows more freedom, choice, and ultimately consequences for your decisions. This is an intangible mechanic that results in good game design. Sadly, in ShB none of these exist.

You have no freedom because tanking is a trait and enmity is just a button.
You have no choice because all the tanks have the same tool kit and same recast timers, with the exception of 1-2 job exclusive skills and invuls.
You have no consequence to to your actions because everything you need is there when you need it and raids are design around it with rigid timers.

There was a time where you had to consider which def skills to use and when to switch to OT stance but its just tank and spank. Maybe the new players like it but personally, the story and music is the only thing keeping me hooked but the fact that there aren't enough VO's outside of MSQ, despite FFXIV being a cash cow is mildly irritating. We'll have to see if they learned anything from the feedback players have given throughout 5.0 but their track record is not giving me much hope.

[ItMe]

Maybe the new players like it [...]

Let's not blame it on everything being ruined for the new players.
I tanked in Stormblood and have way more fun with 5.0's enmity changes. Dealing with enmity was boring and I'm glad it's gone.

[Shin96]

Dealing with enmity was boring and I'm glad it's gone.

That's great and all but I had 100% more fun before ShB. Sure, the enmity combo was not optimal to use all the time, but players wanted it to be given a reason to be more useful. It gave you more variety in skill and the possibilites were endless with active threat management. I can definitely see why some people enjoy it more now but I don't consider myself among them. I also believe that at some point even the new players will probably ask for more, it's just a matter of time.

To make matters worse, now there is little I can do in the way of tanking. I just pull an enemy or a boss and I use my rotation to deal the maximum amount of damage. That's all I can do, there is no system that's actively pressuring you, dealing damage alone isn't enough to justify playing Tank. There was a time where I was proud to say I'm a Tank because not everyone was up to the task and some people knew it was tough to do for some, with enmity combos and threat management. It may seem like it was nothing worthwhile to keep but for me it made a whole difference. Entering a dungeon for example without this system just makes me realize how awfully boring it is.