Will we ever get PvP combos in PvE?

[Colt47]

I'm seriously feeling like we need it at this point. Button bloat is a thing right now and honestly 1-2-3 and 1-1-1 are basically identical. I mean dragoon is a nightmare that would easily reclaim six hot bar slots for more interactive or useful things. That and constantly going 1-2-3 on mechanist while weaving all these abilities doesn't really feel like skill as much as luck when you also have to pay attention to bosses. In fact I think it is even worse for melee dps with the positionals.

[Jeeqbit]

They are committed to addressing button bloat each expansion by upgrading actions such as Rage of Halone into Royal Authority or Stone into Glare. They also take a look at which actions have fallen into general irrelevance and remove or merge them into something else.

They also do PvP-like combos in quest battles and the reason is meant to be to help PS4 players who step into it without being able to configure their hotbar, as well as people who are not used to the NPC's job actions, so it's probably done in PvP for a similar reason since it's not most people's main content.

It would be interesting to make it an option for PvE. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but some people may feel they are only pressing one button for their global cooldowns, which amounts to it playing like healers.

[MPK]

There's already another thread for this

[Rongway]

There are already twenty threads for this.

[Penthea]

That and constantly going 1-2-3 on mechanist while weaving all these abilities doesn't really feel like skill as much as luck when you also have to pay attention to bosses. In fact I think it is even worse for melee dps with the positionals.

Being able to do that is what separates okay players from really good players.

Pve fights are very predictable when you know the mechanics so your rotation becomes easier to do. You just have to learn the dance.

[Seraphor]

Oh it's this thread again.

1-2-3 over 1-1-1 isn't about skill or making the jobs challenging, that's a straw man argument people keep making.

With the combo skills set up the way they are, it would actually be harder if they were all consolidated on a single button.
1-2-3 is easier to keep track of, because you have tactile feedback, you know where your finger is, so you know what part of the combo you're on. Without that, and you're either consciously counting your GCDs constantly* or watching your hotbars like a hawk.
You have to do this, because individual skills in the combo, especially finishers, have unique effects you need to keep track of and use at the right time, such as positionals, buffs/debuffs, and gauge increases.

*You just need to look at any job with a button-spamming burst window to see this. MCH's Hypercharge, DRK's Delirium, etc. optimal execution of these involves knowing exactly how many times you have to hit that button, so that you don't clip, or mess up your rotation in some way. Which involves counting out each button press. This takes more focus than executing your base rotation normally, (which is ok, it's a burst window) it's not sustainable 100% of the time.

The reason this system works in PVP, is because skills and their effects are simplified, because you don't have a strict rotation, and because PVP is all about burst damage. You're reacting to other players actions, you're not perpetually performing a constant rotation.

The risk in doing this across the board, is that they will see that this consolidated combo button requires more focus to use optimally, and will have to reduce the difficulty by simplifying combo skills effects. So that discrete skills don't offer unique effects anymore, instead you gain whatever you gain gradually throughout the combo, or just all at once when finishing it or something. THAT will then lead to 'dumbing down', potentially to the point where the individual skills in a combo no longer have anything that sets them apart besides slight potency differences. At that point, it becomes a single button for a single skill, and your basic "combo" will be as boring as Healer dps.


That's not to say some skills, and even some combo skills can't be consolidated.
Dragoon IS in dire need of some streamlining, and I can see some justification for consolidating some combo skills on say SAM, or the Tanks, in the effort to create more interesting combo systems (that hopefully take a couple less buttons in some cases *coughGNBPLDcough*) but it's not a blanket stance they should take with all melee and MCH, and they definitely shouldn't do it with Monk, or that job is dead.

One idea I had for SAM in fact, to reduce some buttons, is to add in conditional skill transformations to its combos skills.
You'd just have 4 buttons. Hakaze, Jinpu, Shifu and Yukikaze.
When you hit hit Jinpu, Shifu transforms into Gekko, and when you hit Shifu, Jinpu transforms into Kasha.
This would free up 2 buttons and give SAM a unique combo system compared to the other melee.
Meikyo Shisui would transform both to the finisher, but hitting them sets them back to Jinpu/Shifu that you can still use out of combo.

NIN could free up a button and capitalise on the dual-strike theme, by having Spinning Edge transform into Gust Slash, but just those two skills consolidated. This works because Gust Slash doesn't have a positional or a unique effect, and you're only counting "1, 2, finisher" which is also made obvious by the dotted proc outline too, which would be a binary display so that it gives you specific information. Dotted outline = Gust Slash, no room for misinterpretation. So the combo then becomes 1-1-2 or 1-1-3 for Aeolian/Armour.

Unfortunately I don't play DRG enough to know what combo skills could afford to be consolidated, if any, other than combining the two exclusive finishers into one button. But from what I have played, I'd say delete Talon, and give Spineshatter multiple charges. It doesn't need a ranged attack, give it better gap closing instead. It is all about it's Jumps after all and the combo can be too long to waste interrupting it.

[Cetek14]

PvP combos in PvE is good idea, but with certain limitations. We definitely don't want all jobs pruned even more, but certain combos are begging to be turned into one button, like GNB cartridge combo, or RDM melee combo.

[Esmoire]

I think this can be used to increase job complexity rather than reduce it. It would be cool, for example, if you only ever got full combos at lower levels... none of this partial combo nonsense. Could also be an opportunity to give jobs like GNB a little more flavour and something more interesting if you can have what takes 6 buttons now to only take 2 buttons; rather than have this make the job easier, it is now more reasonable to add buttons to the job that can only push the skill ceiling further.

I'd like if this was paired with some UI/UX changes, and battle system changes. For example, other games might have a dedicated combo indicator you can put on your screen; for FFXIV, you have to take a hotbar, put your weaponskills on there, and make them big to vaguely simulate that. Similarly, I'd like if stuff like Tomahawk didn't interrupt your combo, something PvP also thought of. Like when they lengthened the time you can go while resuming your combo, I feel that only increased the skill ceiling for FFXIV as more multitasking has become involved with playing optimally.

[Colt47]

Oh it's this thread again.

1-2-3 over 1-1-1 isn't about skill or making the jobs challenging, that's a straw man argument people keep making.

Oh I agree there is a tradeoff to everything, just the reason I'm bending towards the combo is that I think fights should be more about knowing what to press when, rather than just constantly remembering to hit X-Y-Z in a set order on the GCD. Not going to beat around the bush that the spell combo for paladin feels really weird. I think that it is good that they have a ranged combo, but having it part of the rotation when you are fighting a boss in melee feels like it is missing the entire point of having it. I think that paladins spell combo should be something you swap to keep dps up when having to avoid point blank aoes or dealing with packs of mobs, which is something that all the melee need as well. I just don't see how they can pull that off with the existing combo system because the number of buttons needed is going to get excessive.

Also, we sort of know this is needed because modders see enough of a need to create ToS breaking addons to enable it. I think that SE has done a lot of good work on the UI to prevent the need for that horrible tank porthole mod nightmare that WoW was back in 2007-2012 era. You basically had DBM with DPS meters going while dealing with random hud elements, your node tracker for gatherers, and then the calendar apps that kept breaking all the time that your guild depended on for raids.

And yeah, I don't use these addons, but I hear about them and go "well, someone would only make it if there was a need for it by some part of the community."

[Seraphor]

PvP combos in PvE is good idea, but with certain limitations. We definitely don't want all jobs pruned even more, but certain combos are begging to be turned into one button, like GNB cartridge combo, or RDM melee combo.

GNB already has a consolidated combo button in Continuation, and this is an example of one place where it actually works well, because you combine it with the tactile feedback of the Gnashing Fang 1-2-3 combo.
Rather than turning Gnashing Fang into a single button (you'd basically turn it into a 1-2-1-2-1-2 alternating button spam if you did that) I'd prefer to see the general 1-2-3 combo upgraded into the Gnashing Fang combo somehow, maybe by hitting Continuation first.

So essentially it'd be:
Continuation > Gnashing Fang (Keen Edge) > Jugular Rip (Continuation) > Savage Claw (Brutal Shell) > Abdomen Tear (Continuation) > Wicked Talon (Solid Barrel) > Eye Gouge (Continuation)
If this was done in the same way as DNC's dance moves, then your position in the general Keen Edge combo would be maintained for when you hit your last Continuation.

Another reason why I wouldn't want to consolidate too many combo's into a single button however, is demonstrated by the Continuation combo.
How many of you could actually tell me what each of those skills were called? You just know it as 'Continuation' not 'Abdomen Tear' or 'Eye Gouge'. The combo skills have lost all identity and may as well not even be a combo, just one skill.

RDM I think is absolutely fine where it is. It's not as if RDM has too many skills as it is. Fits neatly into 2 xhotbars with 4 free slots.