Positionals

[ssunny2008]

Ranged DPS are massively under performing and SE needs to stop burying their head in the sand and figure out what they want the role to be. Melee are significantly more powerful

They don´t underperform that hard. The groupbuffs from dancer and bard supports a group very well. Maybe the machinist could need a little buff to compensate this support-abilities. Overall they´re fine and you can play any dungeon and boss easily, meanwhile caster and melees have to adjust way harder especially with such RNG mechanics.

That they´ve 1-2k dps less overall seems pretty fair to me in this way. It´s not even really possible to balance it out. If we take monk and blackmage as hardest examples, it´s always boss-mechanics relative to be in a comfort zone or not. Physical range are always in a comfort zone. If you´re going to bring the phys. ranges on the level of them and you hit a boss where a blackmage have to move 24/7, then it´s not going to work and a blackmage will underperform heavily with a minus of 3-5k dps probably.

You can´t take the top dps as example anyway. You´ve to look for the average player. Not every melee is able to play around the serverticks, to hit every off gcd on a perfect cooldown etc. Same as caster can be interrupt by any mechanic aka E11s tether-bubble. And this is just pure random. Average or even above average players will do mistakes here and there and won´t find the perfect rotation for any moment. This have to be calculated to keep this game fun.
The next thing about melees are uptime strategies. Of course it´s good to have them, but i don´t think that SE always "thinks so far" or just ignore such possibilites when they design a boss. This makes a huge difference too, when they calculate the dps based on their own expectations "how to beat the boss".

That said, if you bring phys. range on the level of the others, they´ll outperform them any time and the most players will lay down on it, because it´s going to be way easier to play mechanics without any damage loss. If anything, then SE should take more care about boss mechanics, possible uptime strats, etc. E.g. A boss with less movement mechanics should have higher magical resistance to counter the power of a blackmage in some way.
Instead of buffing even more classes, SE should nerf the top DPS. That really good players are able to skip 3-4mins of the actual content is a joke in my eyes. Blackmage and Samurai are too strong for a long time now anyway. But phys. range? I´m convinced that they´re in a good state and bring a lot to any raid-party.

[CKNovel]

They don´t underperform that hard.

Big oof.

I'm taking those numbers from the 90 percentile which means it's about players with good gear and good knowledge of their job, no need for server tick or mystical thing, there's no difficulty to reach 90 percentile:

By rDPS standard, MCH is still above DNC and BRD but behind the melees. Unless you look at speedkill and top logs where DNC will be better.
What's 1k when the average rDPS is 22k, that's only like a "mere 5%".


Gameplay wise, mobility has never been as useless.
E9S will make you loose a whopping 3-4 GCDs if you aim to play safe.
E10S will force you to get out of the aoe, you can loose 6 GCDs if you are playing really safe oh no. And if your group care about DPS, you won't even see the 8 towers, the only mechanic that either bother casters or melees.
E11S is permanently melee, when there is "big" mechanics, you can't even target the boss. You can loose one GCD on ring pattern if you badly screw up, thunder patterns is generous enough, you have enough time to get out and get back in.
E12SP1 remains melee friendly, the boss hitbox is so large, I think it's one of the largets I've ever seen you can do most mechanics at max melee range with no problem. Lion rampant has already easy uptime strats.
E12SP2 is melee friendly aswell. You can't target the boss during heavy mechanics or you're stunned.

There is not a lot of "uptime strats", maybe one if you're looking to cheese E10S, but Lion rampant is already quite melee friendly. There is not a single boss that forces you to run for more than 3 seconds. Melee uptime will easily reach 99%.
Meanwhile playing as a ranged, you're most of the time at max melee range due to healing, AST stars or mechanics. There is little to no mechanics to bait, mobility doesn't helps you doing mechanics, on the opposite it forces you to DPS as much as possible while moving for mechanics to close that gap. Utility wise it's ridiculous, MCH only has Tactician.

Even during last tier, ranged were still lagging behind, but caster were still the best jobs rDPS wise. Even RDM was right behind SAM on E8S. And it was the most mobile tier!

rDPS wise they're too low and there is no good reason to be that low. Especially not when BLM is sliding around, SMN with 40% unpunishable casts (But SMN really needs a rework, I do agree with that) and RDM with half casts. Casters are extremely mobile this expansion. Should ranged be lower? Yes if you want, but everyone agree that right now they shouldn't be that low. And if they're lower, they should have additionnal tools to help the team, not have a useless mobility, redondant for the group.

Ranged are subjobs only usefull to silence and mitigate on a 120s CD versus Addle and its 90s.
Look at me running in circles in front of the boss, is that the mobility you languish for?

[ssunny2008]

snip

I know about all that stuff and i´ve read about MCH changes or the lately "bard buff is a joke" etc. The most here seem to look only on QoL and some ff.logs parses and you forget a lot of stuff. It´s not all about numbers and FF14 is far away from being that hard game you might want it to be. Judging by 90% players is far away from being realistic too. The game should be fun and SE´s goal is to keep as most players in the game. I know a bunch of players which perform under 50% or even never reach green, but they´re able to kill E9-E11s. That´s how the reality looks like.

Just look at the classes. Those who bring nothing but DPS to the group (SAM/BLM) are top dps. Close behind them are the other melees and casters which bring rezz, medigation or groupbuffs to the party. Phys. range are behind them, yes, and the reason is pretty obvious: THEY`RE EASY TO PLAY!

You´ve medigation, groupbuffs and you can freely move. Casters and melees are way harder to play to perform well. Imagine all where on the same dps level, who would even touch a blackmage to beat a boss, when you´ve a way easier variant called machinist? It just makes no sense and it´s the same in every game. Low skilled chars are fine and more than enough to beat the game but will never reach the level of a nearly perfect played skilled character. It´s a mindgame, otherwise 80 or even 90% won´t touch them. That the most humans always go the easiest way for their loot is reality.

Balancing bosses and classes around 17 classes with X skills is far more than looking for some dps numbers. And you forget completely, that the game is about "fun and rewards".

Not everyone plays the rotation perfectly, not everyone is able to adjust to the boss 100%, not everyone can time XY, not everyone has the motivation to learn a class till the end... You´ve to cater this audience and phys. range are completely easy to play and forgivable. On top of that they support the complete raid with buffs or medigation. The only con is, that they have a lower damage output, but that´s still more than enough to beat the content. Those classes help such players a lot to complete the endgame, meanwhile other classes reward playersided skill-scaling.


Just look at OP or the 1000 other threads from players who don´t want to play positionals, who want this or that QoL change or whatever. Player-made issues from guys who don´t like XY or just look at some numbers. There are enough players who like such positional play, higher skill-scaling or can understand why things are like they are imo.

If anything... then melees and caster should get a nerf. Having like 2-4mins left on the bosses in a high dps group is a joke if we talk about "savage". But phys. range should NEVER be on the same dps level like the rest. They´re too easy to play and too forgiveable.
And say whatever you want, of course for skilled poeple "mobility means nothing". But it´s very helpful for those who can´t do better and phys. range can always adjust easily for the whole raidgroup, so the other dps can have a higher output.

The current game is well balanced, just too easy to cater the majority.

[CKNovel]

[...]

Yep, you just didn't read what I answer.
I'm not going to pick apart your answer and point out every wrong statement.

So I'll resume;

-There is no hard job, I assume you never raided during HW. Back then jobs were much, MUCH harder to play. I invite you to try ranged, you'll quickly feel that something is missing, most of the time the gameplay doesn't differ from a caster.
When I picked up SAM, I could outdps without effort my MCH.
-90 percentile is realistic. You can do it on accident during your weeklies as long as you know how to press your buttons. You only need minimal knowledge, how to play your job, how to avoid death/damage down and a correct gear.
-We can't balance ranged jobs because someone don't feel like they should put as much work in their melee/caster jobs.
You're basically telling that people who put more work and money in their education for a comfortable work should be paid as much as someone who works at McDonald's because it's "harder".
-Remind yourself that despite that mobility, ranged still have the same amount of mechanics to deal with. There is no "magic protection" that allows them to avoid damage from certain mechanics and this tier is really, really melee friendly.
Only a terrible range would remain far away, ironically being far away can screw everyone in E11S.
-Remind yourself that despite that mobility, ranged are still restricted to healings and mitigation range. SCH bubble, WHM Cure III, AST star... It doesn't have unlimited range.
-It's not only for skilled people, but mobility truly means nothing in this tier. Take it on BLM/SMN/RDM perspective. There's no movement higher than 3 seconds and if there is, bosses are not targetable. During these 3 seconds you have many tools to move and instancast. A BLM I know, a good friend of mine, name the SMN "The 4th ranged".
-Why would you play BRD when there's a stronger variant named MCH? Why would you play RDM when there's a stronger variant named SMN? Why would you play Ninja when there's a easier/stronger variant named SAM? See, that logic simply doesn't work. Players choose the jobs that vibes the most with them, not because of range or because that is supposedly easier to play.

Read that and please remember it:
Ranged are not asking to be top DPS. They're asking for a smaller gap and if that """mobility""" tax needs to exist, then give ranged something that actually matters to the group. Not just the power to run in circles.
Ranged are subDps, because they don't have many tools and depth, they feel easier to play.
Before, ranged were supposed to manage MP/TP resource, that was removed.
Before, they had better mitigation and rDPS, that was removed.
MCH is reduced to a silence and tactician.

Mobility feels like a breeze of fresh air for the beginners.
But rather than a floor, it's a ceiling that prevent ranged from doing more, because of that tax that exist only to satisfy the beginners.

Mobility is not as good as you think.
It has been proved with E8S, considered the savage that requireds the most movement and ranged did not shined at all during progress.
Progress, when players are still learning to optimize and playing safe.

[ssunny2008]

snip

I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

What do you expect from a "casual" game where classes getting dumb´d down? To cater the top 10%?
And what is with the other 89% on ff.logs? Why do they exist, if everything is so easy and every player is so smart and do tons of 90%+ logruns each week? Not all of them are gear-related.

You can talk from yourself, maybe your friends, but this game has millions of players and there are more bad / casual players than those who can read their skills and adjust to boss mechanics. Even surviving as phys. range is way easier than as a melee or caster. I don´t know what´s up with your experience, but i still meet samurais with better gear and they have way less damage on E11s than i have on my monk. And i know poeple from my old guild which were not even able to perform well in a dungeon. I mean... DUNGEONS... half afk content with 2 times aoe spam between the bosses.

And about the classes... above average players or dps hunter will mostly play meta. It´s the same in every game. For example i have rarely seen blackmage on E5-8s in the pf, now they´re everywhere. The good thing about this game is, that the subclasses are well balanced in their own category. Phys. range on their side are the most forgivable classes at any time and they can be played in EVERY content / tier easily as long as this game keeps running.

Just turn off ACT and you wouldn´t even mention a difference. Every class is able to beat the endgame and some of them (phys. range) have an easier life to do that. It´s a fact.


EDIT: Check out the top players in average. The gap is like 2000 dps. Sounds a lot yes, but the most players are NOT able to reach such statistics with a melee or caster, especially not without a decent party. But a lot will be able to come near to this dps with phys. range classes even in random parties. (And this 2000dps more are not needed to beat the bosses anyway.)

[CKNovel]

I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

I don't deny that there is more casual players but I feel that you are mixing things there. The other 89% are not only casuals. Everyone makes mistakes, gets a damage down or dies, nobody is perfect.

For Casuals, DPS don't matter much. As week passes, they'll get gear that'll grant them more DPS and HP, making the savages easier and accessible.
If we still follow your logic, then a high skilled player that plays a ranged because they have an affitiny towards the job should be gutted because the player who dies, suffer from Damage down, wants to play Ice Mage or don't want to commit to learn the basics feels that it's easier to play ranged? You don't ask a runner to slowdown in a race because he has longer legs.

And don't worry about ACT, I don't care much about my own DPS, I care about how well I do my job and what I can bring to the group.
Without such tools, you can still feel the difference. I still remember about a friend who switched from DNC to DRG as we were on E3S enrage and it went in a go. I can still remember about the double ranged comp hitting enrage.
Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Man, I don't aim to sound like an elitist. I just want to be usefull and play the jobs I love without downsides. I don't want to get in a PF, hit the enrage and tell myself "If I was a Samurai main, we would've passed this fight".
What's my purpose today? To bring a 1% stats to everyone else.

Anyway, that's not the topic there.

[IruruCece]

Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Good players in any job are more valuable than meta jobs are in a vacuum. As long as all the roles are filled, anyone can clear anything provided that they play well. You are probably more useful playing a DNC or BRD in a raid than I would be bringing MNK or SAM because in all likelihood, you're the better player. You play enough to see that higher end content and push that content line. I do not.

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

Without something along these lines, you would have a pair of jobs that GREATLY minimize the risks of death thanks to their mobility (especially DNC), while still offering more than enough output to be deemed "useful" by someone who is more worried about their numbers than others are. What then would be the point of taking a melee job into ANY new content, beyond simple preference? And honestly, preference only goes so far. Despite constant complaints about how hard MNK is to play (positionals, greased lightning, idontlikething), the job saw a surprising burst of activity early into ShB when it briefly challenged BLM for top slot. Not many stuck around, I guess.

Melee DPS must place themselves in close proximity to the enemy, regularly unleashing combos efficiently to maintain unique class mechanics, all of which face potential disruption whenever the boss does anything that denies them the ability to attack, or forces them to move away. In addition to this, they have positionals (MNK more than any other) that require moving in a specific way to get the most out of certain attacks OR use shared DPS abilities to negate those positional requirements temporarily. The mixture of limited range, limited mobility, and positionals, combined with fight mechanics, effectively places a lot more stress on the player that is trying to maximize their performance. The reward for doing so is excellent output. Failure either means reduced output, or zero output (death).

You can disagree with this as much as you want. The bottom line, however, is that Ranged DPS can still do the job in any piece of content in the game right now with less mechanical risk to the player compared to Melee DPS. If players chose to play something more demanding, the reward should be greater than for jobs with less of a demand on the player IF they play well. To demand more for less is just being greedy.