At this point should Bard and... I dunno, "Sniper" just be split into two jobs?

[Xbob42]

The lore is how Gridania's archers have a history of plucking their bowstrings and sing songs on the battlefield to inspire their friends and comrades.

Yeah, it's a shame they don't really do that anymore. Doesn't seem to be affecting the lore very much.

[Vahlnir]

Yeah, it's a shame they don't really do that anymore. Doesn't seem to be affecting the lore very much.

Except they still do.

[Qurho]

Yeah, it's a shame they don't really do that anymore. Doesn't seem to be affecting the lore very much.

They... do though? Like, the point of the questlines is the WoL helping and being witness to this revival. Jehantel mentions training new recruits in the archers guild in the ways of song. The expedition is a success and there is an established bard unit in the Twin Adders by the end of the questline, that is even awarded for keeping morale up in Ghimlyt.

Gameplay wise, you're still singing songs on the battlefield, too.

[Seraphor]

No I don't agree.
I don't think there's enough substance to have a job that just shoots arrows, or conversely with all the complaints about MCH having too many 'machines', for a job that just shoots a gun either.
Both jobs are built around a dual paradigm, shooting and machines or shooting and songs.

Imagine if Dragoon didn't have anything to do with dragons and just stabbed things with a spear, or Dark Knight didn't have any dark magic, just a job that swings a greatsword. You're asking for base classes, not a fully fleshed out job fantasy.

As for it not having enough support, that's entirely a balancing issue. With more support comes less personal DPS, and we now have DNC at the extreme end of that, any more support or less personal damage wouldn't be feasible, not least because all of these party buffs have to be able to work while stacking with each other. The more support jobs we have, the weaker their individual support becomes.

[Garnix]

The lore isn't a matter of "how the quests are structured" or "how abilities tie into the quests". The lore is how Gridania's archers have a history of plucking their bowstrings and sing songs on the battlefield to inspire their friends and comrades. The 50+ questline is about a captain in the grand company trying to revive this tradition and start a warsong unit in the Twin Adders, and the Gods' Quiver lends him one of their delinquent archers with the intent of foiling a plan he sees as fruitless, etc. There's multiple bow weapons designed with the intent of being half-harp.

True. But why should they actually change that part of the lore?
Wouldn't it be fine if the bard remained an 'archer/bard' until level 80, and then for the 80+ job quests to be about dropping the bow to focus more on actual bard abilities?
They could make it a progressive change over the next few expansions...

[Xbob42]

No I don't agree.
I don't think there's enough substance to have a job that just shoots arrows, or conversely with all the complaints about MCH having too many 'machines', for a job that just shoots a gun either.
Both jobs are built around a dual paradigm, shooting and machines or shooting and songs.

Imagine if Dragoon didn't have anything to do with dragons and just stabbed things with a spear, or Dark Knight didn't have any dark magic, just a job that swings a greatsword. You're asking for base classes, not a fully fleshed out job fantasy.

As for it not having enough support, that's entirely a balancing issue. With more support comes less personal DPS, and we now have DNC at the extreme end of that, any more support or less personal damage wouldn't be feasible, not least because all of these party buffs have to be able to work while stacking with each other. The more support jobs we have, the weaker their individual support becomes.

Ah yes, because if you basically left Bard as it is now except stopped pretending their songs are in any way bard-related and just called them something else, it'd be sooooo different. They're already just an archer. The bard portion of the class, despite the class being named bard and not archer, is so minimal it's like someone slapped a "bard" badge on an archer and called it a day. It's bard-lite, it's bard-adjacent. It's an archer cosplaying as a bard. But it's not a bard, and the elements of bard that are there are completely insubstantial and I can't believe I have to actually explain this to another human.

As for the other replies, it is pretty typical of how official game forums go, though. "Hey, I think this would be a good change and make more sense." "No, that could never happen. It would be lots of hard work. Ergo, unreasonable request. Also, we're waiting on them to do X, so clearly they can't do Y." Same goddamn conversation I've had on every MMO forum since the dawn of time. To be quite frank, I don't give a shit how much work it is, I think it sucks right now, and I think the soul of the game is being drained away as they go from the hardworking team that rebuilt the worst MMO ever to the team that apparently needs coddling anytime someone suggests something approaching work outside the typical patch/expansion flow we've seen. It's on them to determine what is too much work. Not me, not you. If they decide things like this aren't worth their time, that's fine, but I don't care what random forumgoers think is too much work. If you don't like the idea, that's great, but I find the "hard work" deflection so tedious.

[FlorineC]

To be quite frank, I don't give a shit how much work it is, I think it sucks right now, and I think the soul of the game is being drained away as they go from the hardworking team that rebuilt the worst MMO ever to the team that apparently needs coddling anytime someone suggests something approaching work outside the typical patch/expansion flow we've seen. It's on them to determine what is too much work. Not me, not you. If they decide things like this aren't worth their time, that's fine, but I don't care what random forumgoers think is too much work. If you don't like the idea, that's great, but I find the "hard work" deflection so tedious.

Unfortunately for you, the game, the developers, and the community don't exist to give specifically you what you want. And if you don't care what people on the forums think, maybe posting on the forums wasn't your best idea.

[Eloah]

Just to point this out, since some people might not be aware, a Bard using a bow as a weapon is nothing new in the fantasy genre. Plenty of games/stories have had Bards us other weapons besides musical instruments, and typically it's a bow because of it's "dual use".

In regards to Bards support, many players agree that the 4.0 changes did Bard wonders as they felt like a Bard, but had the strength behind them people wanted. Unfortunately, with 5.0 and the Devs wanting Dancer to be the most supportive, Bard suffered some even though their playstyle didn't change all that much. The main difference is that Bards doesn't "benefit" from their songs the way Dancers do from their dances. This does makes sense for a few skills, since the song buff for Bard is meant to be the repertoire effect. But it can feel underwhelming at times. The solution isn't so much to fix Bard so that their support "is" more impactful, but so that it "feels" more impactful.

[Vahlnir]

As for the other replies, it is pretty typical of how official game forums go, though. "Hey, I think this would be a good change and make more sense." "No, that could never happen. It would be lots of hard work. Ergo, unreasonable request

If you can't handle other peoples' opinions on a public forum I would avoid posting then. When I hop onto the forums, I don't come here expecting everyone to agree with what I have to say. I just say what I think. Some may agree with it, others may disagree. Things might even get a little heated! But at the end of the day...no hard feelings regardless of the outcome. Life's too short for that.

[Qurho]

True. But why should they actually change that part of the lore?
Wouldn't it be fine if the bard remained an 'archer/bard' until level 80, and then for the 80+ job quests to be about dropping the bow to focus more on actual bard abilities?
They could make it a progressive change over the next few expansions...

I mean, the premise of the thread is if Bard should be split into a proper support and another ranged class. If that were the case, I'm not sure how this would be implemented without some hitches. Do you suddenly just lose your offensive toolkit on hitting 80+?

In regards to Bards support, many players agree that the 4.0 changes did Bard wonders as they felt like a Bard, but had the strength behind them people wanted. Unfortunately, with 5.0 and the Devs wanting Dancer to be the most supportive, Bard suffered some even though their playstyle didn't change all that much. The main difference is that Bards doesn't "benefit" from their songs the way Dancers do from their dances. This does makes sense for a few skills, since the song buff for Bard is meant to be the repertoire effect. But it can feel underwhelming at times. The solution isn't so much to fix Bard so that their support "is" more impactful, but so that it "feels" more impactful.

This is a good point though, it's easy to forget that they'd originally removed all the party buffs from Bard's song rotation at the start of 5.0 to shuffle all that supportive ability on to Dancer, before adding some of that back when folks complained. I don't mind where Bard currently is, but I do agree that it definitely feels underwhelming compared to where it used to be.