On Fandaniel (5.3 onward spoilers)

[TheMightyMollusk]

Zenos was fine as a villain for one expansion. He wasn't deep or compelling or even all that interesting, but as a guy who's there to make you hate him and want to kill him, he worked out fine enough. He made a nice contrast to previous well-intentioned extremists like Gaius and Thordan, or tragic monsters like Nidhogg and Yotsuyu. Even the idea of Elidibus using his corpse could've been a fine plot angle to work on the Ascian/Garlean plot.

But this constant stinger crap? It's just boring. Everything he does is just destroying any conflict within the Empire. I would've liked to see how Varis would react to the removal of the unsundered Ascians pulling his strings, but Zenos killed him. Then he leaves the Empire in chaos, which could've been an angle to bring in a new chief antagonist.....and then does a 180 for no particular reason and takes the throne anyway. And.....then he wants a new sword? I guess that's supposed to be intimidating, but it comes across to me as just pointlessly random. And all of it serves his motivation of.....wanting a big fight with the WoL. Because he's a bored little manchild who doesn't have any other characterization. I think they were trying to go for a relentless killer vibe like a horror movie monster, but nothing he does really supports that. He shows up, kills some people on his own side, and then swaggers away to slouch on a throne. He's.....boring. I know I've used that word a lot in this post, but I have no better word for him. Boring.

As for Fandaniel? He's not really growing on me yet, but we'll see where it goes. I really hope there's more to him than an omnicidal maniac stereotype, but I don't have my hopes up right now.

[Teraluna]

Just something that came into my mind whilst reading all the Fandaniel comments here - I wonder if he'll be the only sundered Ascian to show up in the storyline.

[Draginhikari]

Just something that came into my mind whilst reading all the Fandaniel comments here - I wonder if he'll be the only sundered Ascian to show up in the storyline.

Given the fact that Fandaniel seemed to suggest he was part of a group. It wouldn't surprise me.

[SannaR]

Dan just doesn't excite me. Not even when the body he inhabits was Ascian free. Back then I just wanted to punch his face in and maybe strangle him. At least back then he had his smugness to keep him interesting. Now so far he's as boring if maybe not a little more than how Elidibus was back in 2.0. Doesn't help he's gone and tag teamed himself with Zenos who like the rest of his family has messed up daddy issues and was created to be a monster. Thank Emet. I do hope they can make these two less boring like they were able to with Elidibus in just one patch.

I do think there might be something more there with his oh ooopsies I totes forgot what you did to Varis just at the hint of cockblocking you from having a good time with the WoL via a huge spectacular fight. My bad I totally won't do or say anything to trigger you into killing me later. In a I say this as though I'm actually scared about your threat, but I'm not and thanks for reminding me of a way I can goad you into doing something I want later. Instead of him actually being afraid of the maybe more powerful crazy person threatening to end them in a permanent way.

[Hazama999]

I, too, will die on the hill of "not every villain has to be sympathetic."

That said... It's very easy to come off as bland or uninspired if one is writing a villain with a simple motivation and a one-track mind. I think it's a little early to call it on Daniel here, so I'm staying cautiously optimistic about it.

Edit: I look forward to whatever sob story the writers have for us in 6.0.

[JeanneOrnitier]

Not every villain has to be sympathetic but every villain needs to have some sort of depth to them. Some sort of a motivation to do what they do, a reason to care about fighting them beyond just "kill the bad guy because they're bad." I'm open to learning more about Fandaniel; as I said, Emet didn't initially impress me in StB's closing patches either. But I'm definitely worried he'll be as shallow as Zenos.

[quotey]

I was fine with Fandaniel being ultra suicidal. It was a bit different. I think either him or Zenos will be gone before next expansion though regardless. Probably him, but a man can hope....

[Kesey]

Zenos was fine as a villain for one expansion. He wasn't deep or compelling or even all that interesting, but as a guy who's there to make you hate him and want to kill him, he worked out fine enough. He made a nice contrast to previous well-intentioned extremists like Gaius and Thordan, or tragic monsters like Nidhogg and Yotsuyu. Even the idea of Elidibus using his corpse could've been a fine plot angle to work on the Ascian/Garlean plot.

But this constant stinger crap? It's just boring. Everything he does is just destroying any conflict within the Empire. I would've liked to see how Varis would react to the removal of the unsundered Ascians pulling his strings, but Zenos killed him. Then he leaves the Empire in chaos, which could've been an angle to bring in a new chief antagonist.....and then does a 180 for no particular reason and takes the throne anyway. And.....then he wants a new sword? I guess that's supposed to be intimidating, but it comes across to me as just pointlessly random. And all of it serves his motivation of.....wanting a big fight with the WoL. Because he's a bored little manchild who doesn't have any other characterization. I think they were trying to go for a relentless killer vibe like a horror movie monster, but nothing he does really supports that. He shows up, kills some people on his own side, and then swaggers away to slouch on a throne. He's.....boring. I know I've used that word a lot in this post, but I have no better word for him. Boring.

As for Fandaniel? He's not really growing on me yet, but we'll see where it goes. I really hope there's more to him than an omnicidal maniac stereotype, but I don't have my hopes up right now.

I think the lack of Zenos screen time this patch and the fact the patch ends when he snaps his Stormblood sword indicates that his new sword, possibly a whole new look will be center stage for the Feb. Digital Fanfest trailer. I know this doesn't really make him more interesting, but it's something to look forward to, because we'll have that trailer well before 5.5.

[QT_Melon]

I think the overall problem with the "Villains don't need to be morally complex to be interesting" argument is that it ignores the fact this expansion took multiple expansions that have spanned in almost a decade and tied them together for this expansion. Basically it asks the audience to look for complexities and nuances - otherwise this lore forum would different. Once you introduce that mindset and have villains that actually makes you go into "examine mode" it's very hard to deal with a character that tells you there's nothing more to it.

It's a basically fallacy that happens in gameplay: Apophenia

Basically asking people to find the clues, so a villain that says "oh there's nothing more to me" isn't exactly going to take that away when you spent the last few years on this game connecting the dots and coming up with something more complex because you were tasked with that since this xpac.

[Hazama999]

Not every villain has to be sympathetic but every villain needs to have some sort of depth to them. Some sort of a motivation to do what they do, a reason to care about fighting them beyond just "kill the bad guy because they're bad." I'm open to learning more about Fandaniel; as I said, Emet didn't initially impress me in StB's closing patches either. But I'm definitely worried he'll be as shallow as Zenos.

Well... There's certainly room for that, as we've only got a few scenes with Daniel but, having worked with people with antisocial personality disorder, there is such a thing as inherently having a complete disregard for the life of fellow man. This by no means implies that there is no depth to the person.