Make Monk great again! 5.4 Monk doesn´t feel like Monk anymore...

[pinkbubblegum]

You made declarative statements about two jobs which may be your impressions NOW, but if you spent more time getting them both maxed out and getting caught up on all your job quests and skill unlocks, you'd reflect back on your statements right here and now and realize how wrong you were. You're just not there yet, so it's impossible for you to know that when you're too new. Your attitude, however, is incredibly entitled and ignorant, and you're trying to sideswipe what I'm saying with the "everyone who points out I don't know what I'm talking about must be elitist" line that is all too common in this community, when the reality is simply that it's impossible for you to know what the level 80 versions of the jobs look like, with all their skills fully unlocked, when your main job is a level 58 tank and you have no clue what the game will expect from you later. That's why it's easy to go after your previous statement about willfully not wanting to pay attention, because apparently that's too much of a bother for you.

Oh no no, I am fully aware of this. And I have been told this before by a friend that sub80, or whatever, kits are very incomplete. But it does not take away from my experience that I find doing dungeons to level as a Monk is more of a chore than the other classes, and this change to GL totally removes this negative feeling for me. If anything, it has made it one of the jobs I enjoy leveling now haha.

And yes, I admit to saying your remarks have a very large undertone of elitism, but you reply saying "BACK IN MY DAY X PATCHES AGO YOU HAD TO SUFFER" or whatever and I'm just like ok grandma. Time for bed now xD

It's just so hilarious for me how worked up people get over this. You say "Why should devs listen to YOU?" but I never asked them to...? I'm just saying, GL changes were probably done to help people like me enjoy it more and it's doing that so it's nice. I like 'em

I am also not a PLD main. I'm new to the forum so I didn't know how these job icon selections worked lol.

[ValStormbreaker]

Blue mage is notorious for having spells that would be better on other classes
SMN,MCH,MNK etc etc

Yeah, the same is true for PvP, too. Too many skills that would solve lots of problems in PvE, if only they were migrated over. I kept arguing that Somersault and Axe Kick served functional purposes in PvP that would've worked great in PvE as well, like how Axe Kick solves lots of problems in PvE by virtue of how its SHB rework in PvP operates, and we definitely needed more reliable ways of getting chakra without having to rely on RNG, which Somersault solves. It helps that the icons and animations are already in the game, making them dirt cheap in terms of development cost to just migrate over and give marginal potency adjustments and recast time tweaks to as needed, and that they happen to look much cooler than the more "meh" animations of Steel Peak and Howling Fist were, which is a bonus more than anything. PvP is filled with plenty of cool-looking skills that could potentially solve many problems in PvE for a lot of jobs.

I never bothered to level my BLU past 50, so I can't speak to things I don't know (unlike pinkbubblegum who pontificates about things they haven't yet experienced), but my issue with the Suzaku kick being on BLU is partly the fact that DRG does have Stardiver from the HW Nidhogg fight, and that it was shown off in the same live letter that was supposed to be about Monk's major update, but while it was okay for SAM to get one of its removed oGCDs back in its previous rework, MNK wasn't getting any new or returning skills back. In spite of being told that this was a really heavy rework that would be so expensive and justify us waiting two months and that it would maintain the busy feel of the job, it felt like it was slapped together in an afternoon half thought out, and is certainly less busy as we are pushing fewer things now. Oh, and due to now staying in FoF, the job is slower, too. So, for me, showcasing the BLU skill in that live letter wasn't tastefully timed, and it felt like more of a slap in the face than anything.

[Duskane]

well Suzaku isnt entirely related to Monk
Nidhogg literally turns into a dragoon
and Estinien has Nidhogg powers like there's a clear connections with Drg.

i get monk could do with some super strong skill like other melee but there would be optiond from other bosses like Temple of the Fist or swallows compass

[ValStormbreaker]

Oh no no, I am fully aware of this...

If you truly understood those things before I called you out on it, you wouldn't have written half of what you did, and your remarks about my attitude are all in your head. My point was, your leveling experience has nothing to do with what the job is like later, but you made declarative statements about two jobs which you clearly don't understand because you haven't gotten there yet. You're projecting tone onto me when there was no elitism present; nothing I said had anything to do with being an elite or admonishing you for not being a high-performing player. It was just the reality that you're talking about things you can't yet fully understand until later.

What I WAS going after you for was how you were beating on the concept of paying attention as you're playing a videogame. If using your head and thinking is too much to ask of you, and you're beating on a part of the job you didn't like because it expected you to be mindful of what you were doing like that's somehow bad, people aren't going to take you seriously. That's not elitist of me to say, that's just realistic. You moved the goal posts to attack me as though I was criticizing you for not being in the 99th percentile, which sideswiped the point just so you be incendiary.

I can guarantee you, that as the game expects more of you later on, if you do not outgrow that way of thinking, you're going to have a very rough time of things when the baseline expectations of tanking exceed the mental effort you are willing to devote to gameplay, and, speaking from years of personal experience in this game, tanks who act like that get kicked from parties because nobody wants to carry them through content and get held back when they don't feel like handling tanking responsibilities that require a bit of mental effort.

So, a word of advice from a more experienced veteran of this game than yourself... kick the attitude, spend less time on the forums lecturing players about stuff you aren't YET in a position to have a formulated opinion on, spend more time catching up, and then come back when you have a more complete perspective and might be able to come up with creative solutions to the problems we're experiencing. Who knows, maybe they'd be really good suggestions, and I might be wholly supportive of them. But you ain't there yet, champ. You've got a lot of catching up to do.

[ValStormbreaker]

We'll see how you feel about the job once you're caught up to level cap and have unlocked everything, and if you still like it then, because let me tell you... the design philosophy of the content you're playing through now in HW is very different than what we have to deal with now. Encounter design in Heavensward is, in my opinion, superior to that of Shadowbringers for a lot of reasons, so your experience with the current kit you have may feel very different when you're playing through dungeons with a very different design philosophy behind them. You might find you dislike it just as much as you did spamming Form Shift in HW content, but for different reasons, and some of the things you liked in HW might become things you despise in SHB.

[MercuryD]

5.4 IS a band-aid patch for what is, assumedly, coming in 6.0 as an actual rework. 5.4 has been the single most useful band-aid for monk for as long as I can remember.

So what if we lose a very marginal movement speed buff? We didn't have it 2.0-4.9 so it's no big deal. We have nearly machine gun TFC/Enlightenment now thank to deep meditation and brotherhood. Yeah, RoE only being 6 sec is bleh but we still have true north to fall back on if needed. Anatman is still super situational but tbh IDC about that, it's likely gone/reworked in 6.0 anyway.

My gripes with this patch:
-wasted chakra because we overflow now thx to DM and BH
-AA weaker which is just dumb

Other than those 2 things, i see the rest as a net gain even if only qol, as in GL.

[pinkbubblegum]

So, a word of advice from a more experienced veteran of this game than yourself... kick the attitude, spend less time on the forums lecturing players about stuff you aren't YET in a position to have a formulated opinion on, spend more time catching up, and then come back when you have a more complete perspective and might be able to come up with creative solutions to the problems we're experiencing. Who knows, maybe they'd be really good suggestions, and I might be wholly supportive of them. But you ain't there yet, champ. You've got a lot of catching up to do.

Ok grandma. See u in 2 years maybe, knowing the pace I'm going I doubt I'll get to ~relevant~ content til then lol :P

[Guesswhat]

...horrible moves nobody liked such as Featherfoot and Haymaker, how PB was on a 3-minute cooldown...

Those moves were good for solo play, but next to useless in parties. I liked them; not every skill have to revolve around party play. One ilm punch could have been useful outside PvP too, but SE rarely made it relevant in party-PvE, "the real way to play", so, of course, peeps complain.
Perfect balance on 3 min CD was overkill, yes.

As you mention later, Axe kick, imo, it could solve many "problems" with Monk's GL maintenance. In fact PB and AK could be everything Monks need to keep GL up on a rotation that could include Tornado kick. Form Shift could maintain it during long pause in fights. But SE decided to separate PvP and PvE from the beginning, thus not making this an option.

Imo, the removal of GL is another dumbing down to the lowest common denominator. Everything seemingly have to revolve around the holy trinity, and if not, peeps can't stop complaining and SE will eventually give in.

Keeping GL up was never that big of a deal, but apparently I'm in the minority on here. I agree with most that Stormblood, the "Monk expansion", made the Job much worse and that "fixes" they applied just messed things up further.

But it does not take away from my experience that I find doing dungeons to level as a Monk is more of a chore than the other classes, and this change to GL totally removes this negative feeling for me. If anything, it has made it one of the jobs I enjoy leveling now haha...

LOL, so since I like GL, should I expect SE to add similar mechanics to classes I don't like to level. Please, SE, add GL to Bard, else it's a chore to level it.
It's OK to not like every job and not have every job leveled. In fact, that there are jobs that don't cater to everyone, should make the game more interesting.
SE, of course, goes by majority vote. Understandable from a business perspective, yet disappointing as hell. Can't upset muh holy trinity!

[MercuryD]

Ok grandma. See u in 2 years maybe, knowing the pace I'm going I doubt I'll get to ~relevant~ content til then lol :P

You do you. My only advice is that, she does have a point that most jobs really don't feel/play like themselves until cap. Being that you're working on all of them I'm sure you'll find the ones most fun for you. Have fun!

[ValStormbreaker]

well Suzaku isnt entirely related to Monk
Nidhogg literally turns into a dragoon
and Estinien has Nidhogg powers like there's a clear connections with Drg.

i get monk could do with some super strong skill like other melee but there would be optiond from other bosses like Temple of the Fist or swallows compass

Suzaku, a phoenix, literally turns into a woman using martial arts moves, in the expansion Monk was the co-poster child of. Phantom Flurry is Chun Li's lightning kick, not unlike how Six-Sided Star is Chun Li's Tenshokyakku and how Four Point Fury is Chun Li's Spinning Bird Kick. Phantom Flurry ends in a Tornado Kick-like 180-degree cleave. Monk is the martial artist job, and martial arts moves go with the martial arts job. I mean, unless you know of any other job in the game that uses martial arts kicks in hand-to-hand combat, but other than Pugilist (which is a fancy word for "boxer") or its job, Monk, I don't really know of any other martial arts jobs in the game that have hand-to-hand martial arts combat moves. Unless I missed something.

Her other moves are pretty much reskinned Monk moves, too. Well of Flame is basically Howling Fist with a fire effect, all of Suzaku's tank autos are physical damage hand-to-hand combat strikes, and the only things she does that aren't physical damage attacks with hand-to-hand combat are to compensate for the fact that most of the party except for the main tank are behind her DPSing away, so there needs to be some raid-wide stuff for everyone else to do. Beyond that, insofar as I'm concerned, walks like a duck talks like a duck... you see where I'm going with this.

Swallow's Compass is actually themed after the Geomancer lore-wise, and has the closest relationship to AST in the story. The only real martial arts argument there, aside from the Far East Asian flair of the dungeon, is the final boss, but unless Monk were to get a staff weapon and could pull off some sweet Sun Wukong style moves, or essentially turn into Guild Wars 2's Daredevil, there's not a whole lot of relevancy there. And Temple of the Fist was awful... the less said about that dungeon, the better.