Echo Vision Frequency

[Vyrerus]

It doesn't feel deliberate to me.

She's not arguing with Arenvald. She's berating him, immediately after talking to the WoL. Because he's been standing there berating her using his knowledge of her past from the vision he had of her at Baelsar's Wall, when she kidnapped Krile. Her eye doesn't just randomly light up. She consciously closes her eyes and reopens them, lighting it up of her own volition, as she has every time she has used it. Three sentences prior she'd just said, "Had a peek into my past, have you?" Which she said to the WoL. Her head's now facing Arenvald, but she's still thinking about the WoL.

Those are some good subtle observations of yours, though. We also know from the Pendants Echo vision we have while asleep in Shadowbringers( the one where we go to sleep righ after Ole Exarchy visits us after Ardbert singes his hand on us), that she could have been having Echo visions in her sleep as well, when she unconsciously channels her power.

Also, that's all I've been trying to say. She can call on the Resonance at any time. She just doesn't get to control the side effects, but she knows what they are and that they are likely to happen.

I appreciate people responding. I'd forgotten about Ardbert and every WoD having Echo visions at the Gnath colony. Were there more? I went back and checked the first time we meet Krile. Nothin' Kind of a shame.

I also find it kind of interesting that we have Echo visions for every Cardinal Virtue for those instanced battles where we control a WoD companion of Ardbert's. Even though the Cardinal Virtues no longer have the WoD's souls, as those were sacrificed to Minfilia to stop the Flood. I guess there's their residual selves in their damaged Crystals of Light though.

[Veloran]

It's practically directly stated that Fordola has zero control of the Resonant and it's associated Echo abilities, she activley didn't want to be getting visions and they were still happening. Her precognition is also likely an always-on effect once she goes "Brilliant Conviction" like WoL does, it doesn't need to be activated on a moment-to-moment basis and she can't really control when it comes out, just like WoL breaking his own limits.

And she was most definitely not trying to do it in her cell, she was just waiting there to die.

[Vyrerus]

It's practically directly stated

It's directly speculated. Nothing concrete.

And she can control it with 100% ease, as evidenced from when we fought her with the aetherial siphon. We never directly control when the Echo buffs us, except in duty finder options to remove it.

She wasn't waiting to die. She was expecting it, but after everything, she is unwillingly to give up life. Whatever it takes. THAT is directly stated.

[TheMightyMollusk]

She does directly tell Lyse that there's no reason to keep her alive, but it's hard to say if she actually meant it or was just wallowing in self-pity.

[Iscah]

She's not arguing with Arenvald. She's berating him, immediately after talking to the WoL. Because he's been standing there berating her using his knowledge of her past from the vision he had of her at Baelsar's Wall, when she kidnapped Krile. Her eye doesn't just randomly light up. She consciously closes her eyes and reopens them, lighting it up of her own volition, as she has every time she has used it. Three sentences prior she'd just said, "Had a peek into my past, have you?" Which she said to the WoL. Her head's now facing Arenvald, but she's still thinking about the WoL.

Arguing, berating, shouting in the general direction of... however you want to describe it, her immediate focus is on Arenvald. There is no indication to the viewer that her thoughts are still on the WoL - that's just your conjecture to support your take on it.

From a storytelling viewpoint, if they wanted to show her deliberately reading our mind in retaliation for our reading of hers, why then?

As you said, three sentences earlier she was directly speaking to us and angry at what we did. That is when it would make sense to demonstrate that she has control over her visions to a degree that we (and Krile as the "donor") don't even have ourselves as native Echo users.

Overall, while your take isn't impossible, it relies on what I can only see as a poor approach to storytelling.

As well as the timing of the flashback above, your interpretation is also based on the idea that Arenvald's observation of Fordola's condition is incorrect. If this was "reality", it's possible he's mistaken - but this is a story, and the writer has chosen to plant the idea of Fordola's visions being constant and uncontrollable. If this is misdirection, what purpose does it serve? Are we supposed to have misplaced pity for her briefly before she proves us wrong and demonstrates that she's in full control of those powers?

Also, that's all I've been trying to say. She can call on the Resonance at any time. She just doesn't get to control the side effects, but she knows what they are and that they are likely to happen.

I don't think that's what you've been saying. You're trying to argue that she has control over those side effects too.

In your own words in your next post:

And she can control it with 100% ease, as evidenced from when we fought her with the aetherial siphon. We never directly control when the Echo buffs us, except in duty finder options to remove it.

That fight is only evidence that she can control the heightened senses which are the intended effect of the Resonance. It is not evidence that she can control her visions, which are indicated to be an unwanted side effect.



It should also be noted that Krile, whose Echo is the basis for Fordola's power, doesn't have control over her sensitivity to "whispers of the soul" either. She's quite shaken after the first encounter with the Warriors of Darkness at the Gnath hive, and not just because of the Warriors:

KRILE
The vision caught me unawares, and I was unprepared for their attack, but...I could hear the colony chattering all around us... They were so loud...so unbearably loud...

[Vyrerus]

that's just your conjecture to support your take on it.

Unfortunately for you, there's multiple instances of us having Echo visions for people or places that aren't our direct focus. Like I said before, she has the vision when she actives the Resonance, though she's just turned her attention towards Arenvald, her mind and Echo vision are for us. Perhaps she was intending to read Arenvald's past to say something to shut him up, but got us instead.

As far as storytelling goes, it's only mild misdirection, and it's more just leaving room for the writer to change their mind about it, if they want to, as they do with a great many things. It's also to leave it to interpretation, so that players can have fun ruminating on it, as we are now. Personally though, I think it's just more a mishap with the cutscene direction. Like she has to look at Arenvald to talk to him, even though we were just the one who had an Echo vision of her. I think they chose to have it clear that she was speaking to Arenvald, because Echo visions have the benefit of not needing to be direct to make clear who they're about.

As for that, you're misunderstanding my response to Veloran. He's talking about her buffing herself with the buff she gets in the instanced battle at the Resonatorium, and trying to say, that like we can't control our Echo at all, she can't either. Which is just simply not true, as observed in the fight, we have to use the Siphon to essentially, "Turn Off" her abilities, and she reactivates them at will when she regains her focus. Basically, her Echo isn't always on, and she controls when it is, at least while she's conscious and able to focus.

As for how Krile's Echo works for Krile, that's cool and all, but the Resonant aren't subject to the same limitations.

This conversation did make me look back at one of your earlier posts, and I watched some of the other cutscenes. Of particular interest is the Price of Freedom, the scene right after Castrum Abania, where she holds her head to stop or quiet possible Echo visions from Lyse. It makes me realize, that yes, Fordola can control when she has visions, but it takes conscious effort. Eventually she can't sustain that effort and has visions, including when she sleeps.

It also made me think, what if it's not a conscious effort to turn on the Echo for a Resonant being, but effort to keep it turned off?

[Iscah]

Unfortunately for you, there's multiple instances of us having Echo visions for people or places that aren't our direct focus.

Would you like to list some of those? It's not very helpful just waving vaguely and going "yeah, there are examples that prove you wrong" without actually saying what they are.

Like I said before, she has the vision when she actives the Resonance, though she's just turned her attention towards Arenvald, her mind and Echo vision are for us. Perhaps she was intending to read Arenvald's past to say something to shut him up, but got us instead.

And as I said before, it's purely your speculation that "her mind is for us" and that she is not (as I am reading it) focused on Arenvald when her Resonance unexpectedly throws her a vision of our past.

As for that, you're misunderstanding my response to Veloran. He's talking about her buffing herself with the buff she gets in the instanced battle at the Resonatorium, and trying to say, that like we can't control our Echo at all, she can't either. Which is just simply not true, as observed in the fight, we have to use the Siphon to essentially, "Turn Off" her abilities, and she reactivates them at will when she regains her focus. Basically, her Echo isn't always on, and she controls when it is, at least while she's conscious and able to focus.

Firstly, you're again conflating "proof of control over her heightened senses in combat" with "proof of control over all aspects of the Resonance". There is no guarantee that because she can control her senses, she can also control the visions.

Secondly, we do not "turn off" her abilities at all - quite the opposite. We overwhelm them. If her gift is the aetherial equivalent of improving her hearing to listen for the slightest sound, then using the siphon on her is the equivalent of making a massive noise right in her ear and then attacking while she is deafened and reeling from the pain.

As for how Krile's Echo works for Krile, that's cool and all, but the Resonant aren't subject to the same limitations.

Again, your speculation. We haven't really explored the differences between the Resonance and the Echo, and therefore the best reference until we are told otherwise is to compare how Krile's Echo works. And if Krile can't shut it out despite experiencing it all her life, we have no reason to assume Fordola can either.

This conversation did make me look back at one of your earlier posts, and I watched some of the other cutscenes. Of particular interest is the Price of Freedom, the scene right after Castrum Abania, where she holds her head to stop or quiet possible Echo visions from Lyse. It makes me realize, that yes, Fordola can control when she has visions, but it takes conscious effort. Eventually she can't sustain that effort and has visions, including when she sleeps.

I don't see how you can assume from that scene that she has control. She winces because she received an unpleasant vision - Lyse's anger at her actions - and it's probably compounding the guilt she's already feeling over her friends' deaths. That shows us she received it and it pains her, not that she might or might not have control over whether she receives it.

It also made me think, what if it's not a conscious effort to turn on the Echo for a Resonant being, but effort to keep it turned off?

And somehow we reach the same conclusion despite reading all the scenes differently. It seems quite possible to me that she is never in control of the visions and may need to wilfully hold them off - and her flash of anger at Arenvald is enough to break that concentration and let it slip through. It seems far more plausible to me than having her choose to read our mind at that point.

[Keever]

There's another example of an NPC having a vision of our past. Spoilers for the final role quest:

Cyella/Cylva has also seen our past in an Echo vision, though we don't know at what point this happened.

The boy, Unukalhai─I have glimpsed him in your memories. He was a friend. Like him, I heeded the words of the Ascians and, that I might redress the balance, I chose to come here and hasten a rejoining of worlds.

[Vyrerus]

That's just you speculating bro.

For Echo visions we have where we aren't directly focused on a person. Most recently, the scene in 5.0 where the Exarch comes to checks on us, and then leaves. We go to bed. In our sleep we have an Echo vision of his past, set in the future, of him reading Count Fortemps memoirs.


The Echo vision we have of him and Urianger, prompted only by us entering into his private chamber in the Crystal Tower where they discuss the ruse.

Part of the Echo vision we have, regardless of nationality, at each nation's send off ceremony, where we're focused on the leader, and we get their dialogue at Carteneau, only for the vision to switch over to the perspective of the Ascians, who the alliance leaders were not communicating with at all, likely marking when we fell unconscious due to the severity of that vision's pull. Which I suppose is actually the first time in the game that we have visions while unconscious.

The vision we have outside of the Ul'dahn adventurer's guild when we save the refugee woman from slavers. She is our focus, but the vision focus is set on two Ul'dahn noblemen, who were closeby, but out of her earshot, while she is bartering/talking to the dodo tenderloin salesman.

The Echo vision we have at the end of ARR while we are focused on the Scions, City State Leaders, and the jubilation, we have a vision of a dark version of the mothercrystal right before the quake and Bahamut screech or whatever.

There are more, but I think you get the idea. We don't have to be directly focused on anyone or anything to get an Echo vision of said person or thing. We just usually do.


As for how the Aetherial Siphon works in that fight, do the fight again. Every time she reactivates her Resonance, the screen flashes and the room becomes illuminated just like Ardbert when the WoDs use the Echo to restore their HP in that fight. The debuff she gets when we use the Siphon is, "Aether Sickness." Its description reads, "Overexposure to highly concentrated aether is preventing Resonation." Further, she literally casts a spell to activate her Resonance. It has a cast bar and everything. The spell name is, "Resonating Echo." So yes, we do turn them off. You're recognizing the mechanism for how we turn them off, but the point is, she loses her powers and must reactivate them consciously in order to use them.

As for your supposition that the Resonant must work on the same limitations as those whose Echo they borrow... well, no. Just look at Zenos. He may or may not have Krile's Echo, but he does more with the Echo than literally anyone else we know. Fordola's Resonance has allowed her to do more than just what is showcased in 4.0. In 4.1 she also uses it just like WoL and Arenvald to stop Tempering energy, and further than that, it allowed her to erect an aetheric barrier comparable to a very powerful version of Collective Unconscious. This idea is shown again with Zenos when he does combat against Gaius and Estinien. The Resonance allows him to create magic barriers with his hand, something he hadn't done before. I mention this because when Fordola activates the barrier she gains the buff, "Resonant."

[thegreatonemal]

You're trying to blend game play elements with the lore and they don't always mix in this case they probably don't. The device throws off her echo and when the effects wear off it reactivates. The cast bar is just a gameplay thing telling you to hit her again with the thing.