Could there be a relatively peaceful solution to the shard problem?

[Draginhikari]

Could be. Gods can and have had radical changes in how they were worshipped and portrayed. Look at Dionysus for example.

This is kind of a major point when looking at Azem in history context. 5.3 also heavily indicated that our Player Character is far from the first time Azem's shards have been reincarnated. As it seems to be suggest that the first WoL on the First based on the Echo's visions from Elibius was also the same Shard that would eventually become Arbert in the current point in the story. So it's definitely plausible that our shard of Azem also reincarnated on the Source given inspirations for other legends or stories that became. It seems like the Shards of Azem, despite being different people each time, do seem to share some very common characteristics with one another most in the realm of heroics and adventure which are ripe for stories and legnds.

[Alleo]

I don't think this is necessarily true. Azem was unaffiliated with the convocation during the split, and had nothing to do with the summoning of Hydaelyn either, yet they have at least 2 gods of the Source named after them. Also, they wandered the world outside of Amaurot helping the natives, which means that there were more than just the classic Amaurotians existing back then, and they needed help from those more powerful. In one case, Azem helped a village of farmers. I find it very unlikely that the villagers were also powerful creation mages.

I really wonder if those living that way (like the farmers Azem saved) were the other races and that they did not soley come from Zodiark. Since they could not help themselves and since Amaurot had things in place to help those less blessed with the creation magic (since they gave us those crystals after the side quest) I guess there must have been normal people too and Amaurot was only the place for all those that are truly gifted in magic. Seemingly there are two NPCs that got accepted into living there shortly before the end of the world. If that is true then it would make it even worse that the people of Amaurot would sit by and only discuss about possible plans to stop the sound...they sit by watching everything else being destroyed while they only do something when it reached them. No wonder that Azem who seemingly had a heart for the normal people and their problems did not agree with them anymore at the end.

If the density is the same then why choose the newly minted life? Life that those opposed to the plan of killing it off to try and gain back those who sacrificed themselves to summon Zodiark wanted to give the reigns to. Why not use the rest of the old population? Don't forget that we learn that they keep what are basically recipe books for those who have no skill or not a whole lot of skill to use to make anything from a black cloak to stuff like Ifrita and Phoenix.

Because with a high chance the only people still being alive were those living in Amaurot. They kinda waited until it reached the city and as we saw and heard in the dungoen the whole world was then collapsing under calamities. Why would they sacrifice those few remaining people of their city if they could just use new life which might either be of old souls or completely new ones. (But still not sundered) So yes they cared more about the people of their city than anyone else. I mean the Ascians plan bascially is that they want to rejoin everything which would make the survivors and anyone newborn on the source a being with a complete soul. (Including old ancient souls too) And yet they still planned to use those to bring the ones back that they had sacrificed first.

[Kesey]

I really wonder if those living that way (like the farmers Azem saved) were the other races and that they did not soley come from Zodiark. Since they could not help themselves and since Amaurot had things in place to help those less blessed with the creation magic (since they gave us those crystals after the side quest) I guess there must have been normal people too and Amaurot was only the place for all those that are truly gifted in magic. Seemingly there are two NPCs that got accepted into living there shortly before the end of the world. If that is true then it would make it even worse that the people of Amaurot would sit by and only discuss about possible plans to stop the sound...they sit by watching everything else being destroyed while they only do something when it reached them. No wonder that Azem who seemingly had a heart for the normal people and their problems did not agree with them anymore at the end.

I just want to highlight what you said here, as this is very similar to what Sharlayan is on the source. Idk if I've mention this in this thread, but I've theorized that Sharlayan is the legacy civilization of Ancients.

[MikkoAkure]

And with this justification, its not a hard leap to assume that 12 followers of Venat are the source of the 12 gods of Eorzea. Realize the convocation are today's Ascians and is a hard sell to say this ancient being want to destroy your world(s) are also the source of all your faith and hopes for that world. Also Hydaelyn won the fight with Zodiark in the past, so those 12 with Venat, after sacrificing everything are the victors and can influence the history and cultures through time because of the knowledge they would have. And you've just justified my opinion with your statement above.

I know there is a possibility I'm wrong but you can't use a anecdotal evidence to discount one point (my point) because it doesn't agree with you and turn around and use the same logic to justify your point against someone else (YianKutku's point). The lore books also don't make great evidence because they are written from the point of view of a character in the world and, since they can't know everything, can be easily retconned.

If the twelve who followed Venat were more important and became "The Twelve", then why does only Eorzea believe in them? They don't exist in Ilsabard, Othard, or the First. The only belief that transcends religions and geography is Azem. The same symbol that represented them in Amaurot shows up in Meracydia and Eorzea and the name shows up in both Eorzea and Othard. In an interview, it was mentioned that the fact that the same symbol in 2 different places that had no prior contact is significant, along with Azeyma and Azim both being sun gods with similar names being from the same source. Then we have Azem, the wandering Convocation member who made themselves known everywhere. All that, plus what I've said before about this being a video game where the main protagonist is Azem, makes it make more sense that we (the most important one), and by extension the Convocation, are responsible for some of the belief systems of the world that came after.

I'd believe that over Azeyma actually coming from a follower of Venat, and that Venat redid the whole convocation with new people with the same names as the other convocation.

And in regards to the lore books, there's a difference between the writer of the books in-universe getting something incorrect intricate details in Ilsabard versus getting the domain of one of your own gods wrong. On top of that, the fact that they oversee the underworld is mentioned in the character creator.

[Vyrerus]

Would that mean Lahabrea is remembered as Llymlaen? Their names both start with "L", after all, which is certainly a coincidence. Lahabrea has very little to do with oceans and navigation, but that could also be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap.

Nah, more likely Byregot or Thaliak. But we're in Berserk territory with the ole, "Gaiseric's Empire was destroyed in a single night by 4 or 5 gods that were mad at him." Until we're explicitly shown/told exactly what happened, so much is up for conjecture and speculation that we could go around in circles with our theories.

[Kesey]

If the twelve who followed Venat were more important and became "The Twelve", then why does only Eorzea believe in them? They don't exist in Ilsabard, Othard, or the First. The only belief that transcends religions and geography is Azem. The same symbol that represented them in Amaurot shows up in Meracydia and Eorzea and the name shows up in both Eorzea and Othard. In an interview, it was mentioned that the fact that the same symbol in 2 different places that had no prior contact is significant, along with Azeyma and Azim both being sun gods with similar names being from the same source. Then we have Azem, the wandering Convocation member who made themselves known everywhere. All that, plus what I've said before about this being a video game where the main protagonist is Azem, makes it make more sense that we (the most important one), and by extension the Convocation, are responsible for some of the belief systems of the world that came after.

I'd believe that over Azeyma actually coming from a follower of Venat, and that Venat redid the whole convocation with new people with the same names as the other convocation.

And in regards to the lore books, there's a difference between the writer of the books in-universe getting something incorrect intricate details in Ilsabard versus getting the domain of one of your own gods wrong. On top of that, the fact that they oversee the underworld is mentioned in the character creator.

Before you make hero worship at thing, lets not forget the game hasn't squared the fact that Azem didn't join in the summoning of Hydaelyn and yet thousands of years in the future is Hydaelyn's choice of champion. The possibility exists that Azem joins them after the summoning, which can easily make both of our theories correct. And Azem as a wanderer who goes around the world fixing problems really kind of fits.

Furthermore, my argument with the lore books, in context of the 12, isn't over the domain but the origin. One historian in game's present age would have no way to know or confirm that 12 people from a defunct civilization are the cradle of the civilizations that have come after it. Their contribution to history would be so vast, but the materials to record them so few, they would only be remembered as gods.

[Morningstar1337]

Nah, more likely Byregot or Thaliak. But we're in Berserk territory with the ole, "Gaiseric's Empire was destroyed in a single night by 4 or 5 gods that were mad at him." Until we're explicitly shown/told exactly what happened, so much is up for conjecture and speculation that we could go around in circles with our theories.

Byregot is kinda a stretch, since Lahabread's specialty seems to be Weapons IIRC. Rhalgr makes more sense under this assumption.

[Vyrerus]

Byregot is kinda a stretch, since Lahabread's specialty seems to be Weapons IIRC. Rhalgr makes more sense under this assumption.

Run Akademia Anyder again.

[LineageRazor]

One thing to consider about the Twelve, is that there's actually thirteen of them. I suspect that this was because there were Thirteen legendary figures, but dividing a year (or anything else, for that matter) into thirteen segments was mighty inconvenient. So over time two of them got paired up and crammed together into "one" deity, the dual-god Nald'Thal.

As for whether the Twelve are based off of the Convocation of Thirteen or off of Venat and her followers, throwing a wrench into BOTH theories, though, is the fact that Azem didn't belong to EITHER group - and yet, Azeyma is one of the Twelve. If we go along with the strong indication that Azeyma = Azim = Azem, then which of the Convocation of Thirteen is being left out, here, to make room for Azem? Which of Venat's crew is being left out, and why (not that we know squat about any of them except Venat)?

I don't think any of the theories we've come up with to explain the Twelve really fit at this point. It's even possible that the Twelve are actual deities, worshiped even by the Ancients back before the End of Days, and that Azem was named after one!

(Also, while Azeyma DOES share sun-related stuff with Azim, I'm not sure that her role as the Warden really fits with the "wandering hero" theme of Azem.)

[MikkoAkure]

One thing to consider about the Twelve, is that there's actually thirteen of them. I suspect that this was because there were Thirteen legendary figures, but dividing a year (or anything else, for that matter) into thirteen segments was mighty inconvenient. So over time two of them got paired up and crammed together into "one" deity, the dual-god Nald'Thal.

As for whether the Twelve are based off of the Convocation of Thirteen or off of Venat and her followers, throwing a wrench into BOTH theories, though, is the fact that Azem didn't belong to EITHER group - and yet, Azeyma is one of the Twelve. If we go along with the strong indication that Azeyma = Azim = Azem, then which of the Convocation of Thirteen is being left out, here, to make room for Azem? Which of Venat's crew is being left out, and why (not that we know squat about any of them except Venat)?

I don't think any of the theories we've come up with to explain the Twelve really fit at this point. It's even possible that the Twelve are actual deities, worshiped even by the Ancients back before the End of Days, and that Azem was named after one!

(Also, while Azeyma DOES share sun-related stuff with Azim, I'm not sure that her role as the Warden really fits with the "wandering hero" theme of Azem.)

My point was that the Convocation had 14 members including Azem until the "Final Days of Amaurot", however long a period of time that was. We don't really know the period of time Venat and crew were doing their contrarian thing and how known to the general populace they were, since Emet-Selch didn't even mention them before. They also only had 13 including Venat and they tried to get Azem to join them and failed, so would they even have had a new Azem? If so, then what other seat was left out if they were recreating the same roles as the Convocation?

I mentioned Azem's wanderings because they're the one who spawned religions in multiple regions. If we go by what Emet-Selch said about the sundered people only half-remembering the time before, then it stands to reason that the one Convocation member who went around the world helping people and making themselves known would stand out more in their memories than the others who just sat around Amaurot, which conveniently happens to be off the coast of Eorzea, the only region that believes in the Twelve. I don't think the sundered would remember specifics about Azem leaving the Convocation at the very end if they don't even remember that Hydaelyn and Zodiark exist, with neither showing up in any records or religions until Hydaelyn as the Mothercrystal and a being with a will is theorized by the Sharlayans and proven by those with the Echo. And I doubt the Twelve are real gods, considering how we have no proof to suggest that and the Ascians even tried getting the Ala Mhigans to summon Rhalgr as a primal.