Could there be a relatively peaceful solution to the shard problem?

[MikkoAkure]

Snip.

They specifically said that the role of Azem was not replaced after they left. I'm not sure what you're getting at here since you mentioned it yourself. No one took that role over. And considering "Venat" is a name and not a role, I don't think Venat's supporters created their own shadow cabinet of people with the same titles as the convocation that summoned Zodiark.

As for the summoning, the story says that Azem went to get the template for that creation magic. There's nothing there that says they had the farmers summon Ifrita for them and it was well within their power to summon Ifrita without anyone else. I still don't believe farmers living in a village have access to creation magic. Why would they continue to be farming and living in an island village under a volcano if they could just create food with magic?

Snip.

I'm not sure what your exact point is or why you italicized "she". If you're struggling over the gender of Azem vs Azeyma, the gender of Azem is based on the gender of your character. In out-of-game media, they get around that by calling them "our friend" or "Azem" and not using gendered pronouns. Also, it's already stated by someone in the game, maybe Uriganer?, that all the myths seem to have a single source. A story told a thousand different times by a thousand different people over the course of the ten thousand years between now and then are going to cause some differences and embellishments, but the fact that this is a game means that that there's probably not any coincidence that variations of the name exist in different cultures associated with a similar concept and that they're associated with constellations.

[Kesey]

snip.

Because post after post we are specifically talking about two different groups of Ancients. One group is the Convocation which supports Zodiark and become today's Ascians. The second group follows Venat and summons Hydaelyn. You have consistently disregarded the distinction between the two groups to discount what we have said. So please go back and read where we talk about the groups as two separate entities. My colleague's reference "she" is a different "she" than the WOL. Please try to keep up.

I'm aware Venat is a title, but we have no other context for Venat other than by the title, so that is name I will reference for now. And it is very apparent they set up a mirror cabinet, because they came from the same culture as the Convocation. They came to Convocation with idea that summoning of Zodiark was a bad idea only because it delays the apocalypse and doesn't stop it. And for a society seeped in debate and discussion they get a hard "no" from the now tempered to Zodiark Convocation. Their entire society's tenants just went out the window so they formed their own cabinet to have the discussion about what to do. And you see their meeting about summoning Hydaelyn at the end of a dungeon.

I find it odd you also don't think the Ancients had farmers. Or that an Ancients with creation magic didn't summon Ifrita. It's pretty clear that summoning primals is creation magic. I don't think they were using Creation magic to make food everyday. They use creation magic to bring it into existence and like every other plant needs to be farmed to make more.

[SannaR]

Aetherial density is only diminished after Hydaelyn splits all existence into 14 shards. This was NOT done by Zodiark. So once again there are no signs of racism in their society until their faction loses, Zodiark is sealed in the moon and everyone is only 1/14 what they used to be. And the story about the island is to show the WOL, even in the past, was always wiling to act even when others wouldn't have bothered.

If the density is the same then why choose the newly minted life? Life that those opposed to the plan of killing it off to try and gain back those who sacrificed themselves to summon Zodiark wanted to give the reigns to. Why not use the rest of the old population? Don't forget that we learn that they keep what are basically recipe books for those who have no skill or not a whole lot of skill to use to make anything from a black cloak to stuff like Ifrita and Phoenix.

[LineageRazor]

Please try to keep up.

This condescending attitude is uncalled for. Please try to be civil.

That said, I agree that even in a post-scarcity society, there may still be farmers, simply because there's a joy in nurturing life. There's a reason why hobby farmers exist, even when they have easy access to groceries. Sure, some may do it to save a buck or two, but most, I think, do it because they love to grow things, and feel a sense of accomplishment in consuming food they've raised themselves.

An Ancient farmer may be able to conjure up a perfect apple on demand, but that doesn't diminish the achievement in growing a tree from a seed and harvesting the imperfect fruit. The difference between farmers in a post-scarcity society and those in a society like ours is that ours do it to make a living; to survive. Theirs do it for the joy of doing it.

Even if we assert that all of the Ancients were academic types like the ones in Amaurat, I'd imagine there were no shortage of Ancients who specifically study the living things of the world. Acting in the role of farmer would be a great way to study the growth of plants up close and personal.

[MikkoAkure]

Snip.

I disregard the second group because we have absolutely nothing to go on that says that all of Venat's followers make their own convocation with the same titles, symbols, etc. At this point it just becomes wild mass guessing. Considering this is also a video game written by people, logic about people's cultures, coincidences, and what may make more sense gets thrown out the window when you have a specific character that is written to be more important.

This post may age like a banana, but I don't think Venat's followers are going to appear much in the narrative as much as Venat herself. I don't think they were as important or even as known to the general populace. It was described that the split souls hazily recalled some of the events of the Sundering and that's where we get the cave paintings in that one dungeon. Operating on that, plus video game logic, makes more sense to me that the Twelve are based on the convocation members and not the followers of Venat.

For example, Emet-Selch's real name is Hades, the Greek god of death, and his sign is Gemini, the twins, and Emet-Selch himself is associated with the netherworld in-universe. Compare that to the Twelve's god of death, Nald'thal, another being with a "double" name, who are also twins. There's too much "coincidence" here for this to be ignored. It makes more sense to me that a society of sundered ancients remembers their previous rulers as gods and over the eons, creates myths about them that change over time and even their genders become variable between cultures. If the Twelve were supposed to be Venat's supporters, then where are the myths about those who went against them? If the sundered ancients would be able to remember Venat's supporters as gods, they would be able to remember the convocation as well, but they're conspicuously absent.

Then we get to Azem. The Azem who was us, and also a member of the convocation was a wanderer who went around helping people. Most real life cultures throughout history have had a sun god devoted to goodness and light who is also a wanderer. Considering we're operating on video game logic that has already referenced real world myth and the game went out of it's way to mention the fact that A. We're Azem, B. Azem might be where Azim and Azeyma come from, and C. The constellation symbol for Azem is the sun, I think it makes more sense that we as our convocation self is the direct inspiration for that in all of the cultures rather than some nobody (according to the narrative at least).

[YianKutku]

For example, Emet-Selch's real name is Hades, the Greek god of death, and his sign is Gemini, the twins, and Emet-Selch himself is associated with the netherworld in-universe. Compare that to the Twelve's god of death, Nald'thal, another being with a "double" name, who are also twins. There's too much "coincidence" here for this to be ignored.

"Nald'Thal" was named such because "Thal" was considered too short to be the name of a god. "Thal" was named because Koji Fox really liked the sound of the swear "Thal's balls".

Also Nald'Thal is the god of trade, which doesn't really sound like anything Emet-Selch has done. (He's been described as the "empire-builder" among the Ascians, and has himself mentioned a preference for violent conquest over mercantile assimilation.) Nald'Thal in much of Eorzea is considered a single god with two aspects, and the place that considers him two separate (if linked) gods is Ul'dah, who split them into Nald for trade and Thal for the afterlife.

My point is that for all the coincidences, there are also differences, and any hypothesis needs to explain why the differences should be minimized while the coincidences are emphasized. What makes each argument valid or invalid?

[MikkoAkure]

"Nald'Thal" was named such because "Thal" was considered too short to be the name of a god. "Thal" was named because Koji Fox really liked the sound of the swear "Thal's balls".

Also Nald'Thal is the god of trade, which doesn't really sound like anything Emet-Selch has done. (He's been described as the "empire-builder" among the Ascians, and has himself mentioned a preference for violent conquest over mercantile assimilation.) Nald'Thal in much of Eorzea is considered a single god with two aspects, and the place that considers him two separate (if linked) gods is Ul'dah, who split them into Nald for trade and Thal for the afterlife.

My point is that for all the coincidences, there are also differences, and any hypothesis needs to explain why the differences should be minimized while the coincidences are emphasized. What makes each argument valid or invalid?

I was focusing on the fact that Nald'thal is described in-game and listed in the lore book as "the overseer of the Underworld" which is exactly what Hades was. I had already mentioned that the differences can be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap. The coincidences can be explained by the fact that the world is being written by video game writers and not real events, and that the writers can pick and choose things in the game to allude to existing lore.

[Kesey]

I was focusing on the fact that Nald'thal is described in-game and listed in the lore book as "the overseer of the Underworld" which is exactly what Hades was. I had already mentioned that the differences can be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap. The coincidences can be explained by the fact that the world is being written by video game writers and not real events, and that the writers can pick and choose things in the game to allude to existing lore.

And with this justification, its not a hard leap to assume that 12 followers of Venat are the source of the 12 gods of Eorzea. Realize the convocation are today's Ascians and is a hard sell to say this ancient being want to destroy your world(s) are also the source of all your faith and hopes for that world. Also Hydaelyn won the fight with Zodiark in the past, so those 12 with Venat, after sacrificing everything are the victors and can influence the history and cultures through time because of the knowledge they would have. And you've just justified my opinion with your statement above.

I know there is a possibility I'm wrong but you can't use a anecdotal evidence to discount one point (my point) because it doesn't agree with you and turn around and use the same logic to justify your point against someone else (YianKutku's point). The lore books also don't make great evidence because they are written from the point of view of a character in the world and, since they can't know everything, can be easily retconned.

[YianKutku]

I was focusing on the fact that Nald'thal is described in-game and listed in the lore book as "the overseer of the Underworld" which is exactly what Hades was. I had already mentioned that the differences can be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap. The coincidences can be explained by the fact that the world is being written by video game writers and not real events, and that the writers can pick and choose things in the game to allude to existing lore.

Would that mean Lahabrea is remembered as Llymlaen? Their names both start with "L", after all, which is certainly a coincidence. Lahabrea has very little to do with oceans and navigation, but that could also be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap.

[Dragonexx]

Would that mean Lahabrea is remembered as Llymlaen? Their names both start with "L", after all, which is certainly a coincidence. Lahabrea has very little to do with oceans and navigation, but that could also be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap.

Could be. Gods can and have had radical changes in how they were worshipped and portrayed. Look at Dionysus for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5brAr51ip_k