FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

[znushu]

But Yoshi P designed this game to be suited to players who are not hardcore.

Instead, what we see on the forums is the loud minority that expects players to be playing this game several hours a day

ffxiv was never a product designed for the "hardcore" mmo demographic, it was designed for the jrpg + final fantasy demographic. I thought this was obvious from the get go but yeah, I agree with you even though the minority on the forums would disagree with you.

Then it is not the right game for you. MMOs are built on being time eaters, the time it takes to improve enough to down content is part of that equation. Though outside of ultimate/savage/extreme, the bar is set so low, it's difficult to imagine that any person that is seriously trying could not manage it. I postulate that such cases are exceedingly rare. Hell I have seen people with major disabilities IRL pull of acceptable performances.

key word there being "acceptable performance" which can very between player to player. For me, all I care about is my healer healing/rezzing people and that's it while other users though only care about whether the healer is doing some dps. But to me even if they aren't performing well enough for me I still will keep them in the party and just work with what i've got because the product is designed to allow users to work with margins of error in their runs. That's why you can even resurrect users while in a trial/raid or what not.

personally though I wouldn't mind at all if they just allowed all content to work with Trusts, since I prefer running through it that way. More lore, More relaxed runs, True instant q's times. But some would disagree with such a thing and hence goes back to what I said at first, which is something that's acceptable for you isn't something that might be acceptable for other users.

[Granyala]

key word there being "acceptable performance" which can very between player to player.

Actually: no.
The margin is set by the game and to be frank: is only relevant in ex/savage/ultimate anyway.
Do you defeat the encounter before it enrages? The group had an acceptable performance.

I see no point in pestering a healer that only heals in a dungeon. Yeah sure it'll take a few minutes longer, big whoop. I'll take a "heal only" green over a "Imma try to play like a pro and let you die/wipe 5x". Same applies to a tank. Give me a tank that pulls single groups over one I cannot keep alive every day of the week.
Some people feel confident playing at a high level, some don't. I don't like people trying to pull of things they cannot do (gaining experience in new content aside, at some time a tank/healer HAS to check out where the limits are), if content gets cleared either way.

Seriosely... While I dont think we are as "hardcore" as Wow players for example.

From my experience parsing myself: FF-XIV raiders are every bit as hardcore as WoW raiders. The differences are a bit smaller in number but I get the same head scratch moments of "how the **** do these guys pull off these numbers?!" when looking at the top.

[LolitaBansheeMeru]

Actually: no.
The margin is set by the game and to be frank: is only relevant in ex/savage/ultimate anyway.
Do you defeat the encounter before it enrages? The group had an acceptable performance.

I see no point in pestering a healer that only heals in a dungeon. Yeah sure it'll take a few minutes longer, big whoop. I'll take a "heal only" green over a "Imma try to play like a pro and let you die/wipe 5x". Same applies to a tank. Give me a tank that pulls single groups over one I cannot keep alive every day of the week.
Some people feel confident playing at a high level, some don't. I don't like people trying to pull of things they cannot do (gaining experience in new content aside, at some time a tank/healer HAS to check out where the limits are), if content gets cleared either way.



From my experience parsing myself: FF-XIV raiders are every bit as hardcore as WoW raiders. The differences are a bit smaller in number but I get the same head scratch moments of "how the **** do these guys pull off these numbers?!" when looking at the top.

I guess so my group is a little more chill so maybe thats why.

[Veis_Alveare]

Actually: no.

Actually, yes.

You give your example of being fine with a zero dps healer in a dungeon. I'm not. I will give advice and if it isn't taken I'll weigh my options there, either kicking or leaving if the bad in question continues to be a bad.

People set their own standards. If you'd like yours to literally just be completing an instance within the time limit, enrage or otherwise, that's totally up to you... but it doesn't mean that other people must, or even should, agree with you.

[Granyala]

Actually, yes.

You give your example of being fine with a zero dps healer in a dungeon.

I don't give a Qiqirn's rear end about SUBJECTIVE COMMUNITY STANDARDS in a discussion like this.

90% of the time, these standards are completely overblown to the point of pointlessness. Trust me, I've seen enough groups in WoW mandate better gear than the boss in question could drop.

This was a question about objective standards and the only objective standard is set by the game itself. If the boss goes down with a "heal only" healer, than that means he has done enough as far as the game is concerned.

Would we all like him to fill his downtime with DPS? Sure. But these are SUBJECTIVE standards, set by every individual. We do not have the right to enforce them (via vote kick etc) unless the game agrees via design and makes it an OBJECTIVE standard.

Yoshi P explicitly said he did not want to make FF11, which is a well-known time eater. He wanted to make a modern MMO that takes into account the modern work-life balance. I very much do not think this particular MMO is designed to be a time eater. If this was FF11 I would agree with you. But FF14 is not designed to serve hardcore players.

Compared to non MMOs, FF-XIV (even though quite casual friendly in design) is still quite taxing in the time department. It's okay, it's supposed to present you a persistent world with sth to do every day. That is virtually impossible to do w/o some form of grindy long-term goals.

Why do you feel it is acceptable for a healer or tank to steal 5-10 minutes from 3 other players when they can instead be considerate and not do that? What has given them that right and what makes their time so valuable that they may actively take it from the other players in the party?

Why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

What gives you the right to stress a player out who just wanted a nice relaxed dungeon run? He may just have come from work and be totally beat etc.
Who are you to decide what's right or not, especially in trivially easy content that does not require savage like performance?
See? I can easily turn that around, hence the subjective nature of these "community standards".

Truth is bud that Castrum and Red Chocobo aren't terribly difficult once you LEARN THE MECHANICS of these encounters. Just like any other video game.

Ah yes, I remember now. He was that dude... heh.
On a more serious note: once you figure out that you need to run into the middle when the X is gone and then go to a clearing where the red puddle is at the time the X reappears, Chocobo has become trivially easy.

I was rather disappointed by the Castrum though. Expected meaner stuff.

[Veis_Alveare]

I don't give a Qiqirn's rear end about SUBJECTIVE COMMUNITY STANDARDS in a discussion like this.

90% of the time, these standards are completely overblown to the point of pointlessness. Trust me, I've seen enough groups in WoW mandate better gear than the boss in question could drop.

This was a question about objective standards and the only objective standard is set by the game itself. If the boss goes down with a "heal only" healer, than that means he has done enough as far as the game is concerned.

Would we all like him to fill his downtime with DPS? Sure. But these are SUBJECTIVE standards, set by every individual. We do not have the right to enforce them (via vote kick etc) unless the game agrees via design and makes it an OBJECTIVE standard.

You aren't the judge of objective standards any more than SE is.

You're confusing objectivity with the idea of catering to the lowest possible skill level. They are most definitely not the same thing.

I will continue to kick or at the very least not carry bad players who don't take advice. I've been doing it for years, I've had zero negative interactions with GMs. Maybe Yoshida himself agrees with you but functionally the people actually involved in the moderation of the game appear not to.

The game doesn't make any decision. It doesn't say "everyone lived, the healer did enough" like you seem to think. The game just responds to us. If the other players in a group agree that they dont want a freeloader then off that person goes... and trust me, plenty of groups of randoms are perfectly fine with kicking dead weight \o/

[Granyala]

The game doesn't make any decision. It doesn't say "everyone lived, the healer did enough" like you seem to think.

Heh, someone doesn't know how mathematics work.
You meet the enrage timer despite every DPS playing at their classes limit?
-> The game just told you that the healer needs to DPS.

You kill the boss despite the healer not DPSing and everyone only having appropriate gear?
-> The game clearly has not been tuned with healer DPS in mind, ergo it is unnecessary to defeat the content.

You can wiggle around as much as you want, the undeniable fact is you have 2 standards:
1. Objective: what the game demands, mathematically, in order for the players to win.
2. Subjective: more commonly known as "community set standards" which is usually way above what the game actually demands in terms of player engagement.

If the game lets people defeat content with the healer being semi AFK due to not DPSing (since there is not much healing required), I wouldn't blame that on the lazy player. I would argue that the content is tuned to lax.

Is a social game. If you are in a party and 3 of 4 members don't want to rush they are on their right to kick the other one. The same applies to the other way around.

Yup, some people just need to set arbitrary standards in order to feel better about themselves in a video game.

If I have such clear demands for my group, I would not use the DF tool. It is not the fault of the randomly assigned player that he does not live up to your imaginary standard.
IMHO, kicking such a player for no other reason (no wipes, impolite behavior etc) is what I would call (and I hate that term) toxic elitism.

I see your point, however dungeons/24mans/normal primals compromises most of the content, its trivial in the difficulty aspect but they are important since said content is something everyone will do. Stopped caring is a fair assessment one that fits both your answer to this and the problem people have with others.

Do not presume to judge me. You will fail.
I play every group content as if it was a savage raid: 100% attention and the best performance I am able to give.
To me, it's a matter of politeness to give it my all, when our collective butts are on the line.

Only exception: derp runs among friends.

[SinisterJoints]

Actually, yes.

You give your example of being fine with a zero dps healer in a dungeon. I'm not. I will give advice and if it isn't taken I'll weigh my options there, either kicking or leaving if the bad in question continues to be a bad.

People set their own standards. If you'd like yours to literally just be completing an instance within the time limit, enrage or otherwise, that's totally up to you... but it doesn't mean that other people must, or even should, agree with you.

If your head is only wanting to kick a healer in a DUNGEON for not dpsing....you are the problem with this game. You expect everyone to play as you do, to which i say find your own group and stop being a schmuck

[Veis_Alveare]

If your head is only wanting to kick a healer in a DUNGEON for not dpsing....you are the problem with this game. You expect everyone to play as you do, to which i say find your own group and stop being a schmuck

People with weak arguments often resort to ad homs

Stay mad lul

(Just do it while dpsing, or boot)

[BelegErkhten]

If your head is only wanting to kick a healer in a DUNGEON for not dpsing....you are the problem with this game. You expect everyone to play as you do, to which i say find your own group and stop being a schmuck

Stop being bad. The 1-30 CONJURER quest line is literally about telling a person to stop being a useless healbot and to DPS. If all you want to do is heal literally find a different game to play, you are actively wasting people's time by doing nothing but spamming Cure I and Medica II (Or Benefic and Helios / Physic and Succor etc.) and that makes YOU the a-hole, not the rest of your party.