We didn't get a deep dungeon this expansion because of Bozja

[Enla]

Those pieces of content aren't a breath of fresh air they're going back on years of progress the gaming industry has taken to move away from grindy content. SE is going backwards not forwards.

I mean... To be entirely fair you are kind of complaining that one kind of grindy content has supplanted another kind of grindy content. While Bozja isn't my cup of tea necessarily I don't think we should pretend that the Deep Dungeons weren't equally as grind driven. The only difference between the two is how they deliver their particular grind experience and the 'extra' content that got tacked onto them to further stretch out their lives. With Deep Dungeons having Scoreboards and Savage 4 man parties, and Bozja having Castrum and it's eventually Savage counterpart.

[MPK]

I mean... To be entirely fair you are kind of complaining that one kind of grindy content has supplanted another kind of grindy content. While Bozja isn't my cup of tea necessarily I don't think we should pretend that the Deep Dungeons weren't equally as grind driven. The only difference between the two is how they deliver their particular grind experience and the 'extra' content that got tacked onto them to further stretch out their lives. With Deep Dungeons having Scoreboards and Savage 4 man parties, and Bozja having Castrum and it's eventually Savage counterpart.

Castrum `savage` mode is prob just going to be a complete joke like BA

[RyuDragnier]

Castrum `savage` mode is prob just going to be a complete joke like BA

Mechanically yes the fights are a joke as they aren't that much more difficult than a normal Alliance Raid. But getting everybody on the same page, the coordination required, the knowledge that 1 wipe = complete failure for the entire alliance? That's no joke, and is what makes BA hard.

[Chasingstars]

I'm of the opinion that Deep Dungeon-style content is one of the largest factors behind the considerably diminished quality of the player base's understanding of, and performance in, the game. It allowed people to level without ever learning a rotation, how to manage CDs, Etc. because 90% of the instance was killing mobs in seconds. At least Bozjan requires players to focus on single bosses for several minutes at a time, and require them to also AoE for chunks of time as well.

If you do not agree, please look at Shiva Unreal and YoshiP commenting that it was "too difficult" in spite of being a simple, easy Extreme. To the point where it was considered the easiest extreme in ARR.

Deep dungeon not returning is the best combat content-related decision Square has made with this expansion.

All of this. Bozja is not only less mind numbingly boring, but also promotes actual practice and skill development. Deep Dungeons are a terrible leveling design/choice. I like the idea of making a pre made and trying to make it to the top with it getting progressively harder as you go, but for leveling to max level? Nah fam. Big yikes.

How about going to farm mobs that are not part of CE just so your Lost Finds Cache is stocked with what you need to actually do stuff? Is that suddenly less boring?

Is running Castrum over and over for the hope to get augmentation chest (which only offers haste to your gear and nothing else) while losing mettle in the process for each death that much more engaging?

Is basically doing fate trains with a few bosses sprinkled in, that once you understand them are dirt simple to do, that much more fun?

Is getting denied to a duel boss because of rng OR dying at any point in that duel something that: Promotes a healthy and social cooperation environment amongst the others in the instance who weren't picked?

[Darsien]

How about going to farm mobs that are not part of CE just so your Lost Finds Cache is stocked with what you need to actually do stuff? Is that suddenly less boring?

Is running Castrum over and over for the hope to get augmentation chest (which only offers haste to your gear and nothing else) while losing mettle in the process for each death that much more engaging?

Is basically doing fate trains with a few bosses sprinkled in, that once you understand them are dirt simple to do, that much more fun?

Is getting denied to a duel boss because of rng OR dying at any point in that duel something that: Promotes a healthy and social cooperation environment amongst the others in the instance who weren't picked?

You've missed my point entirely. It isn't about how "fun" the content is. It's about how engaging the content is and how it forces the player to play the game. Compare to HoH/DD, which are a set of 10 second engagements for most players who run the content, it's pretty definitive that, for the purpose of player improvement and development, Bozjan is a much healthier option than HoH/DD.

Regardless of how fun/engaging you feel the content is, or your personal feelings towards the content, it's very clear which is the better leveling option for the overall health of the playerbase and the game.

To put it simply, HoH/DD encounters simply do not last long enough for good habits to be formed. Everything on Bozjan, however, typically last long enough to allow for one to get a grasp on Single Target/AoE rotations. Even farming Fragments/Clusters can take a bit of time, and fast to complete fates quickly scale to last long enough. CEs also allow most players a good few minutes to practice their Single Target rotations, and Castrum allows for solid practice in Multi-Target situations as well.

Again, it isn't about the fun factor or if one is the lesser of 2 evils (because both aren't the best). It's about allowing people who play the game to learn how to play it, even at a basic level. This is something that HoH/DD fails to do at even the most basic levels.

[Chasingstars]

You've missed my point entirely. It isn't about how "fun" the content is. It's about how engaging the content is and how it forces the player to play the game. Compare to HoH/DD, which are a set of 10 second engagements for most players who run the content, it's pretty definitive that, for the purpose of player improvement and development, Bozjan is a much healthier option than HoH/DD.

Regardless of how fun/engaging you feel the content is, or your personal feelings towards the content, it's very clear which is the better leveling option for the overall health of the playerbase and the game.

To put it simply, HoH/DD encounters simply do not last long enough for good habits to be formed. Everything on Bozjan, however, typically last long enough to allow for one to get a grasp on Single Target/AoE rotations. Even farming Fragments/Clusters can take a bit of time, and fast to complete fates quickly scale to last long enough. CEs also allow most players a good few minutes to practice their Single Target rotations, and Castrum allows for solid practice in Multi-Target situations as well.

Again, it isn't about the fun factor or if one is the lesser of 2 evils (because both aren't the best). It's about allowing people who play the game to learn how to play it, even at a basic level. This is something that HoH/DD fails to do at even the most basic levels.

Dunno about you, but when I think engaging, I think of content I want to do for fun, even if its on a checklist. The 'means' if you will. Not because I simply want to get better as the primary reason as getting better is sort of the 'ends' to the 'means' of enjoying that content. If I didn't find it 'fun' I wouldn't be finding it that 'engaging' to do and would do something else instead.

Also, if its to get people to learn how to play at a basic level for their class while utilizing single target rotations and multi-target, isn't that what Trusts do while also providing a way to level your alts while in the 71-80 range?