Female Hrothgar as a playable race. Show your support!

[Lihtleita]

five quid says that even if we get hrothgals they wont be slouched over like the males because reasons

[RyuDragnier]

five quid says that even if we get hrothgals they wont be slouched over like the males because reasons

I bet they're going to use real life differences between lions as an example for how the females will compare to males. Meaning not as tall (yet looking as tall because no slouch), less muscles while still being pretty muscular (meaning female Roe levels of muscles, if not a little more), and will probably have less masculine hairstyles. Meaning no "mane", the whiskers on the couerl type may end up being smaller, etc etc.

[Haru304]

*looks at the female Ronso model* *shudders*

The fan art is pretty good though, as usual.

[reivaxe]

A race with masculine traits. Heroic, strong, built, dependable, loyal, assertive, etc. 2-3 of those were chosen or pinned when making male Hrothgar. And I think we both want that for female Hrothgar too since masculinity doesn't and shouldn't be pigeonholed under a specific sex/gender.

... WTF are you on about? O_o
Heroism and strength, loyalty, dependability and so on are not "masculine traits". Like I said, Masculinity (behavior) is a social construct. You can NOT have a "masculine race/ culture" cause even if they value war or violence or strength that's just how the people of that culture "are" regardless of gender. Same for animals, Hyenas are not a "masculine species" of animal for example. That literally makes no sense.

"Heroic, strong, dependable, loyal, assertive" this literally describes Harriet Tubman and countless women in history and today and I would never call them masculine cause "surely these traits are manly in nature".

But that's kinda the problem with men ... thinking of masculinity as the opposite of weakness is the type of shit that leads to toxic masculinity and emotionally stunted men.

(Oh, and Hrothgar being "Heroic looking" is prob them saying that they have a super hero look aka the fantasy exaggerated "big, strong men" bodybulder look seen in films and comics. That's why they would look good in armor. So a heroic female look would, again, look like a thighlander pretty much ... and that's even assuming they would want to make them strike the same themes. Draggo bois were the tall-n-handsome + more beastly dudes ... the women are petite JPop Idols).

What I said is not the law for all fantasy races but for the observational design and concept of what SE made for Hrothgar. You didn't cover the full quote either. Due to SE making one with masculine traits, it would make sense for some consistency.

HOW does making a male that's an animal headed furry 100% humanoid displaying traditionally exaggerated idolized human male body shape = "women of this race must also display traditionally exaggerated idolized human MALE traits"?

If Highlander males looked like Henry Calvary Witcher that doesn't mean Highlander females have to look like ... Henry Calvary Sherlock.

It's like thinking "Viera females look like high fashion female super models so surely male Viera would or SHOULD look like ... flatter chested female super models" O_O


That covers the post for the most part. Spoiler for shorter..

Because it being a female race, you assume she needs or is expected to have tits

No, I assume they have tits cause Hrothgar males have good looking human adult male bodies. The extent of their beast hood is animal head/ fur patches and a tail. Plus the race is clearly based on Ronso which are things we can find pictures of.

If it's a race like the Charr, where they are more cat monster than men and run around on all 4s, then yeah ... females would look more like female cats than humans.

Ditto. But try and look at the subtext once in awhile. There is almost no assumption when what we have for the concept is right on the mossaic. This is...or was, a discussion on the idea the devs lied on the advertised concept and/or falling back into generic routine of race design.

Devs never lied. Devs never said Hrothgar females would be ... anything. That last FULL new race they made can't even be called a "tall' or "short" race as a whole cause they had no desire to make the genders share the same body type. Hroths are clearly based on Ronso so I'd assume the females would be smaller and look like human females body-wise just like Ronso. They also explicitly gave males more attractive male proportions than Roe males and made them noticeably smaller, I'd assume they would do the same for females but there was no telling.

Now we see the art and that looks to be exactly what we got waiting for us if they every make them for the most part.

Personally it kinda reeks as virtue signalling to complain about general race creation tropes as a reason why these women "should look masculine". There's a difference between "everything doesn't have to be petite and kawaii" and "strip away female features cause their men are an exaggerated muscle men shape so their women also have to be that for fairness". Like ... Hrothgar are an attempt to appeal to furries among other demos and we already know what that entails.

Rigging a middie to adapt the concept of femroe into a more improved shorter body with animal/domestic feline head.
Or rig a Roegadyn body in making a female Hrothgar that isn't trying to be curvy or very feminine due to the model, but goes against stereotypes of feminine traits/beauty that stands out from the other female races.

Why would they do either of these?
Should the Hrothgar be for people who like furries or ... people who play Femroe and want to spice it up?

Highlander from the start of ps3 beta in 2013. Made a "Guts" looking character, deleted it and my old account to make a newer one for Stormblood. I didn't think I wanted a anthro/furry race until the SHB fanfest showing which caused extreme backlash but I was still impressed. It was the "new" content that broke the mold even if Hrothgar and Viera were gender locked and had harder time with headgear. But even when the devs said it was an attempt at a "bestiel" race and how it was vaguely inspired from Ronso due to memory limitations, I was still worried a female version would just copy female Ronso. And here we are, a year after a livestream stating they wanted Hrothgar(implied as just male) to not appear like the Roe/Miqote/Viera. A mossaic mural that has them looking like tall midlander miqote. Creativity down the tubes and harder justification in defending the race.

You failed to realize that Hrothgar are basically FF Khajiit/ FF14 friendly Ronso. They are attractive human bods with cat-based-animal heads.

Before Hrothgar was a thing I had for years been supporting Viera, pointing out to Ronso fans (in the great race-adding-wars of old) how a beast race would never work cause of how the gear in this game works. I was wrong and right ... at the price of head stuff they made it happen, but it's not a digitigrade foot beast race like Ronso proper or Charr, it's a Khajiit basically ... and I love what they did all the same.

Its a complete contradictiom from your idea of player appeal and trying not to make copies.

It doesn't.

Viera are tall and thin. Elezen are tall and thin. They are not copies of Elezen though, they have better proportions and measurements.

When male Hrothgar was something unique yet an improvement on a existing unpopular race. DO that with female Hrothgar. Female miqote/au ra will still be the most playable while this race stays in the bottom of the well alongside Roegadyn and Elezen.

You seem to fail to see that any "improvement" on Femroe is going to look more like a woman than Femroe do as that's a major element making them the lease played thing in the game (shockingly, people who play female characters don't commonly want to have their character look masculine ... meaning an improved attempt at a tall female would look more feminine as we see. Logically the devs wouldn't want a repeat of Femroe, but they may want to appeal to people who WOULD play a tall non-human female but don't like Femroe). And you also fail to see that Viera are an "improvement" on the unpopular Female Elezen, and are hella popular for it.

Being a beast race means they will likely not be very popular regardless but if Hrothgar males have shown us anything it's that they can at least find decently sizable numbers. (They're basically Highlander level of popular, which is pretty damn good for being a male only hunch backed beast headed race with limit head gear and pay-to-groom)

You're not that hard to read on what you probably wanted them to look like. Someone disappointed in their looks wouldn't be this fixated in arguing with someone who's disappointed but slowly subsiding their dissatisfaction into acceptance.

LMAO, outside of "have some amount of animal head/ have the same kinda BIG and DRAMATIC and EXPRESSIVE emotes energy of the males (prob 100% gonna happen, races tend to match emote energy between genders and animal head = gotta lean hard on body language cause the human brain doesn't read animal faces well)/ look like women" I don't really care.

That's why I find obsessive detailed talk about personal body shape pref to be gross, I accept that the devs can do w/e they want. I see the point of the race to be "animal people to appeal to the western MMO/ fantasy RPG fans/ furries" and I want people to actually enjoy them.

[Amnmaat]

Also it's worth noting that the body model is "equipped" as part of the clothing so it's not exactly that they've built a special model for her but that every character with unique clothing can have a customised body shape built into it. (See: Minfilia.)

The same can be said about Merlwyb and Fran. Their bodies are not player character bodies, they're 1 piece just like this new Roegadyn model. They use the proportions on these new body types to create gear around them. It seems like the hardest part is actually creating the correct body proportions first more than anything. Once they have that down they have the calculations (percentages and body outline) to mold the gear around it.

This new body type is a good indication, in my opinion, that this might be the blueprint for female hrothgar's body.
The same way I believe Urianger's new muscular Shadowbringers' body is the blueprint for male Viera.

[AnAverageAspie]

"Heroic, strong, dependable, loyal, assertive" this literally describes Harriet Tubman and countless women in history and today and I would never call them masculine cause "surely these traits are manly in nature".

(So a heroic female look would, again, look like a thighlander pretty much).

No. That's, "surely, these traits are in men only". Many women described with these traits, assumed to be exclusively towards males. Were either deemed "barbaric", "loudmouth", "a sin against nature" or, "women who should stay in the kitchen". We can go all day tossing paraphrased quotes of 50s social dogma against women or men to appear or act different in one way to fit into a hole they might and should not have to fit. Having a masculine fantasy race towards both genders is inherently a counter culture move which would be very interesting but not likely given eastern expectation of anthropomorphic animals (male Hrothgar having some cultural links to japans Kaiketsu Lion-Maru. With expectations of feminine beauty in anthropomorphic animals to be your Bagi.
A heroic female should not have to only look like a thighlander.)

HOW does...
It's like thinking "Viera females look like high fashion female super models so surely male Viera would or SHOULD look like ... flatter chested female super models" O_O

Why does it not have to be that? I explained it clear as crystal already 3 times.
Female Viera are based on stereotypical curvy glam standards of the idealized women beginning from the late 50s onto the late 90s.
Its not rocket science to expect the males as the opposite. Stereotypical body standards of the idealized modern lean male (With male Roegadyn and Hrothgar focusing on the body builders of the 50s to the 80s which had an underground following with the homosexual community).
No WIP or tossed out concept art needed. Though others can imagine a more femboyish viera if they want, counter standards of masculinity or "maleness" ala male kpop idols. It feels like a far away dream and I'll question retcons/contradictions to the lore behind it but I'm not going to label their discussion gross or obsessive over it.

If it's a race like the Charr, where they are more cat monster than men and run around on all 4s, then yeah ... females would look more like female cats than humans.

Again. Nobody is expecting nor was I implying. I didn't even mention if Female Hrothgars should have a hunch or not and that would still have it nowhere near a Charr.

Like ... Hrothgar are an attempt to appeal to furries among other demos and we already know what that entails.
Should the Hrothgar be for people who like furries or ... people who play Femroe and want to spice it up?
You failed to realize that Hrothgar are basically FF Khajiit/ FF14 friendly Ronso. They are attractive human bods with cat-based-animal heads.

Furries generally don't like female Ronso's thin tightrope of animal/neko pitfalls. And fans of western fantasy beast races don't like it either. Both wanting an animal like female race to not tread in the territory of 80s-90s cartoons. A big example being Swat Cats ala Callie Briggs or Lt. Felina Feral. My buddy, the furry is strong with this race, just from a simple glance at threads and humor/memes towards them. You do come across players that have no intention/fascination with that community while playing Hrothgar, annoyed with tells or dabs of RP. But nobody has the right to demean, in retaliation to a group of players that consumed and are attached to a work of art. Especially one that was ridiculed for not being male bunny boys. I was even in a FC raid team that would kick people if they rolled to those new races (especially Hrothgar).

Realized? I freaking mentioned and compared them with Khajiit as a better look that them. And I said they were poor representation of Ronso but I prefer the limitations that adjusted them with to be more Bara.

Viera are tall and thin. Elezen are tall and thin. They are not copies of Elezen though, they have better proportions and measurements.

appealappealappealappeal

Being a beast race means they will likely not be very popular regardless but if Hrothgar males have shown us anything it's that they can at least find decently sizable numbers.

We already agree Viera are an improvement. And saying they're copies would contradict the idea for Male Hrothgar. They said they didn't want Male Hrothgar to look like Miqote, Viera or Roegadyn. The only common defense we have against them being Miqote and Roegadyn is their unique head with adjusted mesh and rig respectively.

But female Hrothgar if taking more inspiration from Ronso, is a weaker justification when compared to Miqote/midlander. You could make them closer to femroe but then you have the argument of them being too much like femroe, this time with no unique but similar animal head to male hrothgar that many enjoy them for. You just want tad taller thighlanders with the bad of cheeky emotes that are stuck with the 5 female races.

I see the point of the race to be "animal people to appeal to the western MMO/ fantasy RPG fans/ furries" and I want people to actually enjoy them.

We have the same wants and understand the same point.

[Haru304]

I honestly don't know why viera are so curvaceous in FFXIV. In FFXII they just looked anorexic, lean and feral-ish.

[AnAverageAspie]

I honestly don't know why viera are so curvaceous in FFXIV. In FFXII they just looked anorexic, lean and feral-ish.

Maybe its the hair choices too? Some XII arts show more restrained locks compared to the glam and poofy ones in XIV.
I get the feet and hands issue be it, "*insert console* limitation, haha funny~", "cool/feral differentiators for female races are too ugly and hard to program, slap it on the same model we always use", or "We just want playboy bunnies."
But we can technically give them beast nails through a hand glamor (6.0 should be the character customization rehaul where we shouldn't need to equip nails, claws or tattoos anymore. I thought YoshiP wanted separate equip slots just for cosmetic purposes...but we get umbrellas)

[reivaxe]

No. That's...

I think this is the end friendo, you clearly don't know or care to look up what social constructs are. If you did you would never label a race or culture or species as "masculine". This hang up has seemingly colored your PoV on this.

The same can be said about Merlwyb and Fran. Their bodies are not player character bodies, they're 1 piece just like this new Roegadyn model. They use the proportions on these new body types to create gear around them. It seems like the hardest part is actually creating the correct body proportions first more than anything. Once they have that down they have the calculations (percentages and body outline) to mold the gear around it.

This new body type is a good indication, in my opinion, that this might be the blueprint for female hrothgar's body.
The same way I believe Urianger's new muscular Shadowbringers' body is the blueprint for male Viera.

Pretty much my thoughts on it.

Chronologically it would seem that ...
Painting/ Art was of the Femroe Queen when she was a shrine maiden. Shows her to have a typical Femroe body and shows the Female Hrothgar aren't like that.
Inception is only after she became the host of the Queen Primal which was basically fueled and shaped by the people's feelings towards the Queens. Queens have mostly always been Female Hrothgar and she even gets glow cat eyes at the end. Would imply that it has had an effect on her appearance which would explain why she no longer has a Femroe frame.
Body looks inline with the Hrothgars in the art for the most part.

Could be nothing but I take it as a sign of what they would look like personally.

[AnAverageAspie]

You clearly don't know or care to look up what social constructs are. If you did you would never label a race or culture or species as "masculine"

That's the straw that broke your back? You have a complacent non argument for why we cannot see traits, standards or intent inspired by societal expectations/standards placed on a fantasy race or gender roles of an inspired time period? Countering that we would call real cultures/self conscious life as manly? the toxic term. Fantasy has a blend of inspiration and imagination.
Yes, I can claim a race like Redwall badgers, hares, shrews and even mice as masculine or emanating masculine traits perceived by east and west fantasy. Despite the formers(Badgers) culture of males leaving home to climb/defend a volcano, the females and race/species are still battle ready protectors with the same strength as their male counterparts. Allegorical representatiom of the mens draft and women's war particitation but both look and act strong.
Fantasy races usually represent or advertise fantasy classes or roles. The problem is the gender expectation (which is when it becomes very toxic, you and I agree) that one gender cannot be, show or act masculine. That dimorphism is a thing for some creatures so its instead inherited to all creatures, that it should be followed in human race/cultures but warped into social constructs, that masculinity is exclusive to the male sex of a race or culture.

Let's call for a punch break