Is it just me, or did 5.3 represent a big decline in storytelling? (spoilers)

[Razard]

Firstly, brevity is the soul of wit.

TL;DR The game ending wasn't the way I wanted it to be

There, saved several posts. In all seriousness, please format and condense your posts. Makes it really hard to follow.

1) Limitations of the genre I'm afraid. This isn't DnD or a old timey CRPG. It's an MMO, the main form of interaction with the game world is press button to reduce enemy numbers. That's not even going into why discussing anything with the Ascians is an utter waste of time. Tell me, what is the negotiation point between "We want to kill you all to bring our utopia back, it wont go wrong like last time, we promise." and "We don't want our worlds and us to be annihilated, please and thank you." This organisation has genocided billions. The Ascians aren't this "poor innocent misunderstood faction" that you seem to make them out to be. Heck the post story shows that at least 1 sundered ascian wasn't on board with the plan, wanting to get his jollies from general mischief making.

2) Because Elidibus was a primal, He's not a "member of the Amarotians" He was sacrificed millenia ago to become Zodiaks heart. The conversation should really end there, but I'll humour you. Even worse, a primal with dementia. He doesn't even remember WHY he was doing what he was doing. He was a machine on autopilot doing his duty. One of the Brooms from The Sorcerors Apprentice.

"But Razard" I hear you wail, "wha about the Memory Crystals". Well Sally Strawman What makes you think he would let us get close enough to use them? It took the combined efforts of You, 7 Summoned warriors, G'raha Tia and the Crystal gosh darned Yower to subdue him long enough to get those crystals near him without him cutting us into pieces.

And even then, the effort WAS made. In 5.2 we try to reason with him only for him to vehemently refuse us. You even can attempt before the boss fight. His response? To turn into an Incarnate of the Warrior of Light and shoot a blade beam at you. That doesn't make us "killers", that's self defence. You seem to be running under the mistaken assumption that good ol' Elidibs is a rational actor in this scenario. If you where paying attention, you'd realise he isn't, he's a malfunctioning machine. Even Emet-Selch, who saw this eventuality, planned for you to put Elidibus out of his misery.

The problem with "plot forks" is that they heavily dilute the story. Because every scene from that point on has to take those choices into account, which is untenable in a constantly evolving, years long project such as this. It fractalizes the story, meaning you have to write, animate and voice a fractal amount of the same scenes to take into account every single combination of choices. People cry when we have a couple of extra months during Covid, what you suggest would take years between patches. You either end up with the Telltale problem where you have an illusion of choice and it doesn't matter what choice you make, or you have the Mass Effect 3 problem where nothing actually matters and the ending does a quadruple somersault face plant into a pile of poo. And for what? So an absolute minority on the forums can feel like special snowflakes?

And no, Not all characters need to have the same screentime. How do you police that anyway? Make sure all characters have the same word count? When Thancred is not in a scene a character must ask "Where's poochi... I mean Thancred". Not every plot has to have every character be relevant. This was G'rahas story just as much as it was WoDs and the scions.

Also I'm starting to believe you don't know what fanservice is. The story was probably completed by the time 5.0 came out. How would they have known that G'raha would have been popular? Did they come back from after the 8th Umbral Calamity too?

I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this. But, when it comes to the story of FFXIV, your character preferances do not matter. The Team has a story to tell and they will use the characters within that world the way they want. I'm sorry if that chaffes you but that is reality. No matter how many Hoary BaulderXEdda fanfictions you want to write and RP.

[Arallir]

Razard
Firstly, brevity is the soul of wit.There, saved several posts. In all seriousness, please format and condense your posts. Makes it really hard to follow.

Thank you very much for your reply.
I understand, and apologize, but I try not to be unfounded and to give arguments. What I myself insist on in the context of “what does it mean to convince”.

It's an MMO, the main form of interaction with the game world is press button to reduce enemy numbers.

If MMOs are all about pushing a button and reducing the number of enemies (yes, it is), then why bring up the topic of a endless cycle of violence? Why bring up the topic that the warring parties are similar? If you know your limitations - act on them.

Tell me, what is the negotiation point between "We want to kill you all to bring our utopia back, it wont go wrong like last time, we promise." and "We don't want our worlds and us to be annihilated, please and thank you." This organisation has genocided billions.

I have a few ideas. But it will take a long time to describe them. In the end, everything depends on the writers, and what goal they set. I could give many examples. They are mostly from collectible games (like Granblue Fantasy), but in this case the genre is not important. And if there can be no negotiations, I will ask again, why lie and raise this topic? And I would have no questions if it was a universe like Dark Souls, not a fairy tale.

The Ascians aren't this "poor innocent misunderstood faction" that you seem to make them out to be. Heck the post story shows that at least 1 sundered ascian wasn't on board with the plan, wanting to get his jollies from general mischief making

So let us act the same. Why don't we kill the Amalj'aa or any other certain beast tribes? They also kill in large numbers, they give their prisoners to the eikons to be tempered and to be killed by us in the end. But the game says - it's genocide, you can't do that. The Ascians, and I mean specific three of them, plus shattered ones. And the whole race of the ancients - what genocide did they commit? And I didn't say they were innocent. I was talking about giving a second chance.

Because Elidibus was a primal, He's not a "member of the Amarotians" He was sacrificed millenia ago to become Zodiaks heart.

Elidibus is both person and primal. After being absorbed into Hydaelin and after disconnected from her, was Minfillia the primal in the end?

[Arallir]

Even worse, a primal with dementia. He doesn't even remember WHY he was doing what he was doing. He was a machine on autopilot doing his duty. One of the Brooms from The Sorcerors Apprentice.

Tell me, will a machine on autopilot worry about losing memories? Afraid to get them back only to lose them again? Will it blame itself for the failure? Worry about the death of it’s specific friends / allies? Was Ifrit worried about the death of any particular Amalj’aa? Is saving a person from 13 a part of a machine program or not? And, if you watch him carefully, you can see that he rushes about, and periodically, as if trying to find something in us (I can paint it separately). This is not the behavior of the machine. This is human behavior, albeit with dementia. Should I just say to Elidibus “screw you, pal”? I do not know. (My grandmother, the kingdom of heaven to her, suffered from Alzheimer's syndrome. I have something to compare with this in reality. I have not heard thoughts that it is easier to put such people to sleep so that they do not suffer) Plus psychology. In such a state, you don't even know what to believe. And you will cling to any crumbs that you think is right to you.

"But Razard" I hear you wail, "wha about the Memory Crystals". Well Sally Strawman What makes you think he would let us get close enough to use them? It took the combined efforts of You, 7 Summoned warriors, G'raha Tia and the Crystal gosh darned Yower to subdue him long enough to get those crystals near him without him cutting us into pieces.

In my humble opinion, it depends on building a dialogue. Who says it should have been done at the last moment? If he grabbed the gun, then act like you mean it. Then there would be no questions. (Although I will remind Undertale again. Where Flowey is spiteful and tries to kill the hero, and it does not interfere with anything).

And even then, the effort WAS made. In 5.2 we try to reason with him only for him to vehemently refuse us. You even can attempt before the boss fight. His response? To turn into an Incarnate of the Warrior of Light and shoot a blade beam at you.

I noticed that everyone constantly relies on the canon as it is. But my point is that it could be changed.I don't know how else to explain this. We have a few phrases here and there. I do not argue. But in the form in which it is, it cannot be called a convincing. We do not give counterarguments to the arguments. And to persuade means to bring them. If Square Enix cannot write a dialogue consisting of more than one phrase from the main character, don’t touch the topic of "convince" at all.

[Arallir]

The problem with "plot forks" is that they heavily dilute the story... or you have the Mass Effect 3 problem where nothing actually matters and the ending does a quadruple somersault face plant into a pile of poo.

I can write a lot about the ending of ME 3 separately. But this does not apply to this topic. But it is strange that being familiar with these games, you did not understand my claim to the fact that by turning to the game character "convince", the developers, as it were, promised me this opportunity. You can find fault with all the same: I choose a phrase and it suddenly, does not lead to anything. In this case, the global fork would not be needed. A purely marker whether a particular character is alive or not. Both Bioware and TellTale did an excellent job with this.

And no, Not all characters need to have the same screentime. How do you police that anyway? Make sure all characters have the same word count?

I am not suggesting counting seconds with a watch. There shouldn't be a feeling that some characters have much more of it than others. No Tancred in the scene? No problem. I am in favor of not having a picture that the character for the expansion + patches appeared on the screen 1-2 times for a couple of minutes. Is FF7 - solely Cloud's story? Why doesn't it feel like Yuffie is being pushed out of the picture in someone’s favor like Tifa of even Barret? In ME, if you already know it, the entire Shepard team is involved in the plot, although at times someone is absent from the screen.

Also I'm starting to believe you don't know what fanservice is. The story was probably completed by the time 5.0 came out. How would they have known that G'raha would have been popular?

Imagine for a moment that G'Raha hasn't become popular. And try to simulate, what would be the reaction of the audience then to the cutscene where the main character happily runs to wake him up? Where do we run side by side on an adventure? Remember how many unhappy players there were against Minfillia, who wasn’t described as main character’s best friend and all in all “one and only”? Are you still sure developers didn't rely on G’Raha’s popularity in writing these cutscenes? And the twins' conversation was clearly breaking the 4th wall.

when it comes to the story of FFXIV, your character preferances do not matter. The Team has a story to tell and they will use the characters within that world the way they want. I'm sorry if that chaffes you but that is reality.

That is why Father Ilud's phrase “Friends of Minfillia are friends of ours”when editing ARR was changed to “Friends of the Scions ...” Because they have a story to tell and they do not look back at the audience. Also, why then in WOW the fanbase is so mad about what they did to Sylvanas? It's the same principle, the team can take those characters that they need and do with them what they want, because they have a story to tell.

[RTX3080]

Is this a TitanMen thread

[Arallir]

I beg your pardon, I did not really understand you.

[TroySoFab]

I really enjoyed the story throughout this expansion, and I hope they continue things as they are.