Do you want healers to be reworked from the ground up?

[Semirhage]

The classes may be balanced but they sure has hell aren't fun or worth it to play to the community at least. and I don't think anything they could build onto this simplified system could fix it, either start over from scratch or revert SCH and AST to SB and go from there.

This is step 5: "No no don't give WHM any utility, just tune their numbers against the two overpowered Good At Everything kits"

The next step after that one is AST and SCH mains bitching to high heaven because the easy job can match their output for less work.

Keep cycling.

[Liam_Harper]

Go look at clear rate statistics for endgame content and come back and tell me that same thing. AST and SCH both having significantly less usage than WHM and AST being used half as much as scholar.

Where are you seeing this? I'm looking at total 5.3 parses for this Savage tier and AST is used more than SCH (11.4k to 9.6k). AST overtook SCH and saw a spike in popularity after the 5.3 changes. SCH is actually in a rather dire spot lately, excelling at almost nothing, having lower damage and having half its toolkit tied to a clunky pet that ghosts and vanishes for 30 second windows.

[PondHollow]

This is step 5: "No no don't give WHM any utility, just tune their numbers against the two overpowered Good At Everything kits"

The next step after that one is AST and SCH mains bitching to high heaven because the easy job can match their output for less work.

Keep cycling.

You cannot balance the same set of jobs for savage players and any other purpose.

I've seen many people suggest, for example, that Samurai should have relatively high DPS to compensate for lack of utility, and also, that Samurai should have lower DPS because they thought it was relatively easy.

Both of those lines of logic are commonplace, but the development team has to pick one, and it vacillates.

Perhaps those could be reconciled with hard and easy modes for each job, but the dominant issue with the healers (according to most posters in the Healer Roles subforum) is something else, how boring healers are.

[Laphicet]

This is step 5: "No no don't give WHM any utility, just tune their numbers against the two overpowered Good At Everything kits"

The next step after that one is AST and SCH mains bitching to high heaven because the easy job can match their output for less work.

Keep cycling.

What I said there is a simplification, I would actually keep whm where it's at save for adding back aero 3 and adding shell+protect at some kind of other mitigation, but, well, SCH and AST need to be reverted or have a proverbial sledgehammer taken to them.

[Semirhage]

but the dominant issue with the healers (according to most posters in the Healer Roles subforum) is something else, how boring healers are.

I mean yes, that's the most pressing issue with the role at the moment. But recall that a decent number of posters here are, out of one side of their mouths, kvetching that healers are boring now that they're all as simplistic as WHM, while out of the other side it's all "keep WHM where it is but revert AST and SCH".

There is only one conclusion I can draw from both "healers are boring as-is" and "keep WHM as-is", and that conclusion is that I want this forum designing WHM about as little as I want the current class design team working on it. Because this forum wants it boring.

[glamazon]

I play all three healers but only since shadow. All three are eighty.
WHM needs more dps abilities whether it’s tied to lillies or not.

AST needs more buffs than just dmg. Bring back that spread ability I heard about. Or let the lord lady do something other than +dmg. Also another dps spell.

SCH needs more debuffs. Also I won’t complain about its healing because I find the challenge rewarding. Let’s face it healing as scholar is the most challenging of all three. How about giving scholars a couple debuff dots to weave? Art of war is fun but that drains no so fast and it’s spam.

[Recon1o6]

The dominant issue with healers is boredom.
Some healers in this forum seem to think we must have whm be easy and lack utility- absolutely not. Let me point everyone towards conjurer: that class is what healers should be taught on. If you treat whm as a tutorial healer as opposed to a full job, then you will be ruining whm's fun again

remember HW? it lacked utility although it had good personal dps. So it was fun to play, but raiders disliked it.

Whm must be fun too, and get some utility of some kind or highest healer dps complete with rotation to compensate for the lack of utility like the other roles have with their selfish jobs. A self buffing powerhouse of healing and damage would fit a nice niche for WHM and we can end this "but whm has to be simple!" train of thought.

The jobs should be designed to be fun first and raid second, but each job must be able to pull its weight in raids or raiders will complain. That means giving WHM tools to compete with the other jobs.

[Deceptus]

The jobs should be designed to be fun first and raid second, but each job must be able to pull its weight in raids or raiders will complain. That means giving WHM tools to compete with the other jobs.

It's almost like SE/ the FFXIV development team has forgotten or dismissed the philosophy that saved FFXIV.

[GrimGale]

The dominant issue with healers is boredom.
Some healers in this forum seem to think we must have whm be easy and lack utility- absolutely not. Let me point everyone towards conjurer: that class is what healers should be taught on. If you treat whm as a tutorial healer as opposed to a full job, then you will be ruining whm's fun again

remember HW? it lacked utility although it had good personal dps. So it was fun to play, but raiders disliked it.

Whm must be fun too, and get some utility of some kind or highest healer dps complete with rotation to compensate for the lack of utility like the other roles have with their selfish jobs. A self buffing powerhouse of healing and damage would fit a nice niche for WHM and we can end this "but whm has to be simple!" train of thought.

The jobs should be designed to be fun first and raid second, but each job must be able to pull its weight in raids or raiders will complain. That means giving WHM tools to compete with the other jobs.

I keep echoing this idea that WHM should be a powerhouse in terms of both healing and Damage output in comparison to other healers. I see it as the healer BLM equivalent. Selfish in terns of utility but incredibly powerful.

That in itself doesn't make it necessarily easy to play. The fact that a class is straightforward to understand doesn't make it easy. In BLM's case the rotation is increidibly simple, but the long casts that warrant it's damage output make it so it demands a good knowledge of the encounters. WHM could stand to be like this, at least in the damage department.

That's why I think WHM could stand to gain from some sort of self buff upkeep mechanic, just like Enochian. Turn WHM enochian on, and Elemental spells turn into light spells.
Make Glare a slow cast with very high damage, give WHM some mobility abilities and an oCD damage ability to maintain the enochian state. That way, players would be rewarded for smartly weaving healing and damage while constantly casting spells.

[Almagnus1]

IMO the jobs should be balanced around how they work in Savage, and let the rest of the game figure it out.