Lets talk about the FFXIV player base..

[Gemina]

This is an enormous issue. I started playing in Stormblood and thought I was pretty good. I spent over a month at level 70 before I learned about FFLogs and was able to see that my best performance was 16th percentile in an alliance raid. It was the kick in the pants I needed to get better. If I'd never seen that I'd probably still be terrible. No one had ever said anything about my performance, though I'm certain that I frustrated a ton of players with how bad I was.

If players aren't allowed to let people know that there is significant room to improve and provide feedback on how to do so, then the game needs to. Being given a rating compared to other players at the end of instances would be a good start.

Yeah... No it's not. This is more attributed to supporters of parsers getting their voice to be acknowledged and heard throughout the community. While this is not necessarily a bad thing because it does promote better play, the unfortunate thing about it is that they make a bigger issue than what is realistically present.

If we were to go by that philosophy than every PS4 player would suck. Do you truly believe that? Are you going to tell every console player right here and now that they have no place in high end duties?

Truth of the matter ties into what the OP is talking about. The common denominator is so low now that if you care about your performance and rotation; you actually read and understand tooltips; then you are already better than 80% of the players out there.

[Mechnikov_the_Jotunn]

Truth of the matter ties into what the OP is talking about. The common denominator is so low now that if you care about your performance and rotation; you actually read and understand tooltips; then you are already better than 80% of the players out there.

I sadly agree with this. I don't think giving the group a letter grade is the direction it needs to go in either.

SE's light anti-parsing stance seems to be based in that they don't want people to sweat about performing perfectly in-game, something a lot of people have weaponized into running as far into the "I can auto-attack through the dungeon and it's valid" kind of camp.

Problem is that if you're given a colorful sticker regardless of how you do on a test for example, the natural outcome is that everyone stops trying because there is no longer a difference in doing well and "doing". It's why you see people argue that if it takes you an hour to clear a dungeon, you cleared, why are you angry? Because we can do it in 20 minutes.

I believe a larger issue is that we can't control our experience in FFXIV very well. If you want to gather/craft and ignore all combat stuff? You do you. Savages? Go for it. But we want to play with like minded people and simply saying to "Make a group in DF" isn't a helpful response. How would you control that? Anyone can have item level 500, and I'm pretty sure there isn't a nice way to portray you want to clear dungeons in however much time without it sounding like you're implying something negative on the general community.

[AngeliouxRein]

I'm getting genuinely curious on how often you guys run into terrible peeps because I feel its once a month or so that I run into an actual bad player. For me it feels more like only 20% of the player base is bad and even that number is a bit high compared to how rare it is for me to run into bad players. That tales of the Duty Finder thread (if it's 80-90% bad players in this game) would be a lot longer than it is now if it's that many bad players. This coming from someone on Crystal DC.

[Angelov-Mercy]

With the resource of Discord, I would suspect there should be a lot of players in FFXIV servers, perhaps if you guys joined them to find teams, and when you come across good players, invite them to it as well. I'm not sure if this idea was already presented, but it seems like a logical option that would be helpful all around. Servers for just a FC limit availability to just joining that company and finding teammates wouldn't have the same advantage.

[Krotoan]

How will anyone ever know they're playing poorly or straight up wrong if no one ever tells them

If someone want's to improve or notices they get kicked from a lot of parties.. they can ask why or look up how to improve. Otherwise it is not my responsibility or right to tell them they're bad. I'm not suggesting silence if mechanics are being done incorrectly, or content isn't being passed though, just that people shouldn't jump on someone just because they're playing sub-par.

This seems like a very counter-productive attitude that exists purely to justify bad players being bad.

How does this "justify" players being bad? It just avoids persecuting people who aren't up to whomevers standards.. and usually those standards are above and beyond "did we pass the content", which isn't necessary to play and enjoy the game.

I feel sorry for Jijifli because it wasn't their party so they couldn't kick this problematic DNC, but according to you, Jijifli also shouldn't even mention that the DNC is being a nuisance and actually shouldn't even be in said party. We deal with this kind of issue in parties constantly, regardless of content or level, where players just don't put the effort in that others do. This is a team game, if you're not willing to put the effort in and respect your fellow players time, you should not be playing this game, it's selfish beyond belief. No one is entitled to free clears and carries in content just because they don't want to actually try.

They can initiate a votekick like everyone else can. State a reason. Or if you don't like people allowing sub-par players, leave. You don't have to be in the farm either. This isn't "never say anything about it", to clarify, just that people who constantly whine about the healer not healing or the tank not pulling big enough really need to make their own parties if it's such a big problem.

I've spoken up in a farm PF before about a player who was dying to all the mechanics and generally just not helping. I got told that person was a friend of said PF leader and they only kicked them after they had been DC'd for about 10 minutes. I shut up after I found it was there friend because I know how it goes, there was a potential for me to get kicked if I kept complaining because people would rather defend their bad friends than admit they shouldn't be there. Did I mention this bad player DC'd after winning the mount the first time it dropped? Very cool.

And yet you live and continue to play the game. It really didn't change your life all that much to just be quiet did it? You could have left as well.

[Irisdina_Wiloh]

If someone want's to improve or notices they get kicked from a lot of parties.. they can ask why or look up how to improve. Otherwise it is not my responsibility or right to tell them they're bad. I'm not suggesting silence if mechanics are being done incorrectly, or content isn't being passed though, just that people shouldn't jump on someone just because they're playing sub-par.

I'm sorry but this is an awful way to teach someone they are bad, if someone keeps getting kicked from parties then they're just going to quit, especially if no one offers any explanation and silent kicks them. It might not be your responsibility or right (why are you even saying it like that lol) but it seems cruel to let a bad player flail about instead of helping them and SE has shown that outside of Hall of the Novice and SSS, they’re not really interested in helping players learn how to play their jobs. If they choose to ignore the advice, that's a different conversation. Also, 'jumping on a sub-par player' that's a weird way to put it, the only people who do that are just as bad as the person they're lecturing and no one likes them either. Sub-par play is NOT ok unless the person is new to the game or the content itself.

How does this "justify" players being bad? It just avoids persecuting people who aren't up to whomevers standards.. and usually those standards are above and beyond "did we pass the content", which isn't necessary to play and enjoy the game.

This is simply not true, the idea that people who are trying to offer advice in this game to other players have lofty standards that go beyond what is required is false and pushing it as the truth is facetious. I have never, ever seen someone ask a bad player or a new player to perform at Extreme/Savage/Ultimate levels. Asking someone to perform a rotation, actually press their buttons and contribute to whatever piece of content they willingly signed up for is nothing more than asking for basic decency. If this person doesn't want to actually play, they should not have signed up for content, it's as simple as that.

They can initiate a votekick like everyone else can. State a reason. Or if you don't like people allowing sub-par players, leave. You don't have to be in the farm either. This isn't "never say anything about it", to clarify, just that people who constantly whine about the healer not healing or the tank not pulling big enough really need to make their own parties if it's such a big problem.

Sure, they can initiate a vote kick, but let me tell you what will happen. The PF leader will most likely take the party out of the content and remove the person pointing out an issue because they're rather protect their friends feelings than actually take the rightful criticism onboard, that or they'll just blow the PF up because people in this game cannot deal with problems being pointed out.

Also that goes both ways, those who do not do damage as healers and do not do big pulls when the party wants it, should make their own parties so as not to be detrimental to others.

And yet you live and continue to play the game. It really didn't change your life all that much to just be quiet did it? You could have left as well.

Sure, I got my farm done (no mount, very sad) but that's another bad experience for me to chalk up. It didn't really change my life, but every time something similar happens, it's just going to quietly build up in the back of my mind and eventually sour my attitude. You shouldn't so flippantly write off bad experiences, acting as if it didn't matter, because unfortunately it is a problem with this playerbase. If these bad experiences were few and far between, then sure I wouldn't really care and would just accept it as luck of the draw etc, however, we have an entire thread dedicated to the sheer ineptitude of this playerbase and it's probably the biggest thread on this board. I'm not stupid enough to expect that every single time I do content with people via DF and PF, that I'm going to get players of the same skill level with the same investment, however it shouldn't be filled with players who are half paying attention, don't know how to play their jobs, won't listen to advice and bring the party down.

To finish up and to address your final point, why should I have to leave because of a bad player? That is a fantastic way to drive away all the good players from interacting with others in the playerbase because they'll just get flamed and told "if you don't like my bad play, leave". The playerbase needs to realise it's on them to assist others to get better at the game and to remove those who do not want to from play until they wake up and understand that no one wants to play with them unless they actually try and that's really all anyone is asking for, for others to try and not just run around the arena of a boss, pressing their gcds when they feel like it and dying to mechanics and then typing in chat "haha oops xD".

[HeulGDarian]

They need to put an actual floor, and then say they wont go any further down. unfortunately if the easy mode for solo instances has anything to say about this its that they wont. Id love to say we have reached the bottom of the pit, but the pit is endless.

[Mechnikov_the_Jotunn]

I get where Krotoan is coming from, but it seems odd to expect people to be content with just clearing a dungeon, that's kind of the minimum. The game isn't difficult, hate to break it to anyone. I also don't think the silent kicks or silence when a group wipe happens has the person who might've caused it reflect on what they could have done better. I do genuinely believe some people stumble through content.

I could spend an hour in a dungeon, but it could also take 15 minutes. I derive no greater fun nor pleasure being in the dungeon longer. It's why some peeps get peeved at single pulling tanks. You CAN pull two groups, so it costs nothing to do so. As far as I can tell, people run roulettes to get their tomestones for gear, not for the joy of running Thousand Maws again.

I want to restate the validity of both ends again. If you're someone who wants to have a pizza in one hand and your hand on WASD with the other, I think that's fine. With the elaborate and relevant crafting system in FFXIV, Housing, Social, and Combat aspects of FFXIV it's normal to have an array of people from all mindsets to play the game.

But if we're going to be tolerant and accepting that some people aren't going to understand their rotations, use CDs, and frankly sometimes slow things down; I feel it's only fair you don't crucify someone who mentions they want you to double pull or potentially offers well meaning advice. Toxicity goes both ways, forcing someone to pull wall to wall if they're not sure they can is toxic, forcing the entire party to play your way is too.

[Eelanos]

I kinda feel most of the problem depends on how people communicate. It's not the same if the healer says "Wanna do a double pull?" or "You can do a big pull, I can take it" or the DPS asks "Hey, guys, do you think you can handle a bigger pull? I think we can burn them down quick." compared to someone just saying a flat "pull more" or saying "Ugh, do a bigger pull or we're gonna be here forever..." or even going ahead and pulling by themselves without the tank.

Heck, I'm not a fan of wall-to-wall pulls, but literally last night I had a healer that asked our tank "Hm... a warrior... Wanna do a big pull? Like, really big. Wall to wall."
Just that extra bit of a warning helped a lot set up the mood of the room and put the entire team on the same page.

Likewise, I used a macro with sound to warn the tank to activate tank stance this one time and he got annoyed. I could see how he could have taken the macro as "aggresive" because it felt very mechanical and had the sound attached to it, so I told him that it was okay, that I didn't mean it in a harmful way and that I knew that the macro could be seen as me being a dick. It was just a friendly warning.
Immediately after that, we were joking around and just having fun, and by the end of the dungeon he apologized to me (Which he really didn't have to) and we gave a commendation to each other.

Really, the main reason people might seem like they don't want to learn is because if you agressively pull them one way, they will agressively pull themselves to the other. What I mean by this is, if you sound harsh while giving advice, even people open to learn will refuse to be taught anything coming from a guy pointing at them with an accusing finger.

[Nethereal]

I kinda feel most of the problem depends on how people communicate. It's not the same if the healer says "Wanna do a double pull?" or "You can do a big pull, I can take it" or the DPS asks "Hey, guys, do you think you can handle a bigger pull? I think we can burn them down quick." compared to someone just saying a flat "pull more" or saying "Ugh, do a bigger pull or we're gonna be here forever..." or even going ahead and pulling by themselves without the tank.

Heck, I'm not a fan of wall-to-wall pulls, but literally last night I had a healer that asked our tank "Hm... a warrior... Wanna do a big pull? Like, really big. Wall to wall."
Just that extra bit of a warning helped a lot set up the mood of the room and put the entire team on the same page.

Likewise, I used a macro with sound to warn the tank to activate tank stance this one time and he got annoyed. I could see how he could have taken the macro as "aggresive" because it felt very mechanical and had the sound attached to it, so I told him that it was okay, that I didn't mean it in a harmful way and that I knew that the macro could be seen as me being a dick. It was just a friendly warning.
Immediately after that, we were joking around and just having fun, and by the end of the dungeon he apologized to me (Which he really didn't have to) and we gave a commendation to each other.

Really, the main reason people might seem like they don't want to learn is because if you agressively pull them one way, they will agressively pull themselves to the other. What I mean by this is, if you sound harsh while giving advice, even people open to learn will refuse to be taught anything coming from a guy pointing at them with an accusing finger.

TBH this point is also amplified by your friends(echo chamber) especially in new tanks. Out of any role tank is the only role that will have someone in their premade say "they're new don't pull ahead" as if that's an excuse to not at least attempt to do your up most instead of just accepting that your friend will not succeed and making them comfortable with mediocrity of the highest degree. Honestly friends set up new tanks for failure more than any role by not teaching them failure is natural and you should pull as much as you can take not as little as allowed. The other thing people fail to make tanks understand is how their AoE works and when they should be using it over their single target combo. The struggles of tomorrow will be the struggles of today and yesterday. My first level 80 wasn't on a tank but I would hate to have single pulled all my way up to 80 only to be asked every single expert roulette/80 dungeon why I'm single pulling.

In regards to people who do ultimate content and take advice well. Most do, some don't. Most people who run ultimate don't need help with their skills or rotations but what can trigger a bad reaction is talking about how they handle/fail/deal/ or do mechanics a certain way. I've cleared TEA with a DNC who swapped to GNB and failed to provoke off his co-tank during perfect alex second tank buster 4 times, fail to shirk once, and fail to use their immunity once. All in the same exact place/time frame all 6 times and at the same time blame their co-tank for either A. Not telling them when to provoke or B. Accusing them of not having provoked after they failed to shirk and take off their tank stance. We were on enrage for about 2 weeks and one of those was a 00.01% wipe. We kicked two people from the group(the GNB and a sch who used recitation twice and did nothing with it), grabbed two more who had cleared and had another clear within 2 weeks.

Ultimate content is very unique in this game as first and foremost all the way from the beginning to end it's a test of endurance and time and your schedule. Second most a test of skill and consistency. Third most a test of character. It's only after ultimate grinds you down past those first 3 do you see what type of player you're dealing with.