Tales From the Shadows Updated (SPOILERS ABOUND)

[Iscah]

Thanks for the graphic. (I've been meaning to draw out a something very similar but I am terrible at getting around to things.)

In other words, by Occam’s Razor, time travel can never change what has already occurred; only create a new outcome independent of the original.

I'm not sure that Occam's Razor (loosely: simple theories are preferable to complex ones) is the right thing to be invoking, but otherwise yes, more or less.

The time traveller can affect the world around them, but those actions either become part of "how it always happened" or, if they create a situation that is incompatible with what they know as history, that forces time to diverge so the new incompatible events don't affect the original version. The traveller can still remember the events of the original timeline, but they cannot return to it because they have forced themself onto a different path through time.

[Draginhikari]

Thanks for the graphic. (I've been meaning to draw out a something very similar but I am terrible at getting around to things.)




I'm not sure that Occam's Razor (loosely: simple theories are preferable to complex ones) is the right thing to be invoking, but otherwise yes, more or less.

The problem with applying Occam's Razor to fictional concepts like Time Travel is that Occam's Razor is kind of intended to determine what is the mostly likely scenario to explain a phenomenon we encounter in the real world. In fiction, the explanation for any phenomenon is only limited by the writer's imagination and the ability of the reader to suspend their disbelief which kind of makes a concept like Occam's Razor hard to apply.

[Alleluia]

“In those days, I could but dream of being counted with the likes of Cid, Nero, Biggs, and Wedge─indeed, I would still give my right arm to achieve half of what they achieved...”

...

/cough >_>


I always enjoy seeing G'raha wax poetic about his motives, so this was a great story for me. lol Old Man Middy waking up and laughing at Omega was amusing. Also, Biggs III thinking for a second that their shelter had just fallen down cus they hadn't repaired it properly. lol

Heck of a day, though: They wake up that morning thinking they might blink out of existence. They don't. Then their house caves in cus one of the walls decides to wake up, laugh at them, and possibly tell them to get off his lawn.

Glad we got some resolution to the eight umbral timeline, though. (I guess they're the original timeline, technically? Since they happened first.) The outcomes fit nicely with the time travel model DBZ introduced to me as a kid in the 90s. lol

Bit of a rant:

Loved this story. Still I question why they didn't just put forth the effort into fixing their world in the first place instead of setting up time travel?

I mean, I appreciate it. One of my favorite characters is part of my team now b/c of it. And it was a hell of an adventure.

But, from a practical standpoint, if I was a member of the people living in that timeline, I'd be a bit... miffed? I mean, apparently we aren't doomed. And we spent all this time building tech to accomplish time travel and, yes, we will get to use it for the rest of the world now, but shouldn't we have been doing that before? Plus, is the doomed world really even as doomed as we (and G'rraha) were kind of left thinking? Did Black Rose's effects even reach the rest of the world beyond Ilsabard/Aldenard/Othard?

I'm glad they're gonna rebuild. But the rebuilding seems to have been something that didn't result from their time travel efforts, so it begs the question of "Couldn't we have just been doing that before?"

Maybe I'm being cynical.

[Alleluia]

From the picture of G'raha, we can see that his right hand isn't crystallised yet so maybe he only bonds to the tower just before he leaves, or at least it hasn't started "paying him back" yet and most of his visible state as the Exarch was directly the price of his time-travel trip, since it's indicated that he looked like that when he arrived.

I noticed that, too. Maybe he only merged with the tower after he spoke with the survivors of the Flood and realized he'd need to extend his life span? (And need power to protect these people/himself in the meantime.) And *then* he was called Crystal Exarch, after a while. Or he was always called that cus of the tower in the first place, not his deformity.

So long as nothing happens to bring us there, at least. The WoL is usually not the sort to look the other way. Though saying that, I find myself imagining the bizarre scenario of the WoL traveling to the Eighth Umbral Astral Era timeline and discovering that our own future reincarnation was recruited by Emet-Selch and Elidibus to shore up their ranks.

Azem wasn't tempered and left the convocation in protest against Zodiark. The sundered ascians they raise from soul shards are from shards of Ascians who are tempered and predisposed to go along with the convocation. There is no reason that our soul shard would be able to recruited as a member of the ascian ranks. If they get their memory back, they wouldn't willingly agree to it. And since Zodiark isn't whole, I think he can't temper anything, so they couldn't brainwash us, either.

[Morningstar1337]

I wonder who was the young girl holding Omega. Biggs didn't seem to immediately recognize her and Middy focused on her first before looking down at the Omega toy.

My guess....

Azem's slash our reincarnation, someone who has yet to embark on the grand adventures that will mark her as the harbinger of the Eight Astral Era much as we brought forth the Eight. A tale for another place, of another time and maybe for another time

[Anonymoose]

That was a lovely story; a heart-felt glimpse and a drop of closure for something we were never meant to touch.

At the same time I think the main reason I'm able to say that is because, lore-wise, it confirms that we're not even trying to make the time shenanigans sound consistent or realistic anymore. I can set that whole mangled thing aside and never think about it again, lol. I think we're at straight-up, faerie-tale, "don't even think about how this works" wibbly wobbly timey wimey whatever, now, right? As long as there' a vague superficial pseudo-logic to it, Keep Calm and Blame The Rift?

Maybe one day... lol

[Rosenstrauch]

Azem wasn't tempered and left the convocation in protest against Zodiark. The sundered ascians they raise from soul shards are from shards of Ascians who are tempered and predisposed to go along with the convocation. There is no reason that our soul shard would be able to recruited as a member of the ascian ranks. If they get their memory back, they wouldn't willingly agree to it. And since Zodiark isn't whole, I think he can't temper anything, so they couldn't brainwash us, either.

We don't actually know the full details as to why Azem defected from the Convocation. We also don't know the exact details of how the Ascians ascend one of their lesser brethren—it's not even something we know they've done beyond what is strictly necessary (ie: There are 13 Overlords, but only 3 are Unsundered, so of course the other 10 had to be ascended to their positions). As for Azem's soulstone, I have to point out that it can not actually contain Azem's memories—Azem defected before it was even created, and what few apparent memories it does possess belonged to its creator, Emet-Selch/Hades. And as for Zodiark not being able to temper anyone, if that were the case, would the sundered Ascians even be tempered to begin with?

But all of that, I think, is fairly irrelevant to the idea. Elidibus was able to convince Ardbert and his companions into trying to cause a Rejoining with words alone. Is it really that farfetched to believe that they could do the same with our future reincarnation?

[Alleluia]

We don't actually know the full details as to why Azem defected from the Convocation. We also don't know the exact details of how the Ascians ascend one of their lesser brethren—it's not even something we know they've done beyond what is strictly necessary (ie: There are 13 Overlords, but only 3 are Unsundered, so of course the other 10 had to be ascended to their positions). As for Azem's soulstone, I have to point out that it can not actually contain Azem's memories—Azem defected before it was even created, and what few apparent memories it does possess belonged to its creator, Emet-Selch/Hades. And as for Zodiark not being able to temper anyone, if that were the case, would the sundered Ascians even be tempered to begin with?

But all of that, I think, is fairly irrelevant to the idea. Elidibus was able to convince Ardbert and his companions into trying to cause a Rejoining with words alone. Is it really that farfetched to believe that they could do the same with our future reincarnation?

I wasn't referring to the soul stone when I said soul shard. I meant the literal shard of our soul that is present in the Source WoL that is Azem's reincarnation. The ascians, from how I understand it, raise up the shard of their sundered brethren by doing something that at least partially restores their memories, or at least puts them back in touch with their ancient self, and lets the tempering of Zodiark that's left some kind of mark on their soul to take effect.

And I thought we did know that Azem left the convocation b/c of the plans around Zodiark? We do know they weren't part of summoning him, otherwise they'd be tempered and we'd not be fighting against the rejoinings now.

I don't rule out Elidibus successfully lying to our future incarnation and getting them on his side like that. When you said recruited by Emet, I thought you meant like unsundered ascians. Nevermind, then.

[kujoestars]

Thanks for the graphic. (I've been meaning to draw out a something very similar but I am terrible at getting around to things.)




I'm not sure that Occam's Razor (loosely: simple theories are preferable to complex ones) is the right thing to be invoking, but otherwise yes, more or less.

The time traveller can affect the world around them, but those actions either become part of "how it always happened" or, if they create a situation that is incompatible with what they know as history, that forces time to diverge so the new incompatible events don't affect the original version. The traveller can still remember the events of the original timeline, but they cannot return to it because they have forced themself onto a different path through time.

The problem with applying Occam's Razor to fictional concepts like Time Travel is that Occam's Razor is kind of intended to determine what is the mostly likely scenario to explain a phenomenon we encounter in the real world. In fiction, the explanation for any phenomenon is only limited by the writer's imagination and the ability of the reader to suspend their disbelief which kind of makes a concept like Occam's Razor hard to apply.

Let’s just say I use looser definition of the principle to apply to more general things (and honestly, it isn’t even always true in science, but I digress). That said though, while that IS true, in works of fiction where the writer(s) has already established the rules themselves (which 14 has via the entire Alexander story where it turned out everything was a massive timeloop) and said writer(s) consistently follow their own rules (looking at you, JKR and letting Cursed Child through when the whole concept breaks your own established time travel rules), it applies pretty well within the rules of the story.

In any case, my point (as Iscah kindly summarized in two sentences) stands: If things were always meant to have occurred, a time loop is in place. If a paradox is created, then a branch in the timeline occurs where the time traveler still experienced the previous events but is locked in to the new timeline.

[Mixt]

That was a lovely story; a heart-felt glimpse and a drop of closure for something we were never meant to touch.

At the same time I think the main reason I'm able to say that is because, lore-wise, it confirms that we're not even trying to make the time shenanigans sound consistent or realistic anymore. I can set that whole mangled thing aside and never think about it again, lol. I think we're at straight-up, faerie-tale, "don't even think about how this works" wibbly wobbly timey wimey whatever, now, right? As long as there' a vague superficial pseudo-logic to it, Keep Calm and Blame The Rift?

Maybe one day... lol

"Blame the Interdimensional Rift" sounds about right, yes.

Having Alexanders time shenanigans interact with the The Rift always struck me as the sort of thing that could cause things to Get Weird and give the laws of reality a bit of a wedgie.

The involvement of a different shard, essentially a copy of the world existing on a different quantum frequency/whatever you call it that also moves through time at a different speed from the world it was split off from might also have had something to do with it.