Tales From the Shadows Updated (SPOILERS ABOUND)

[kujoestars]

However, as the latest short story shows, the doomed timeline is able to continue existing and moving forward because there’s no force to prevent it from existing. Sending G’raha back simply caused it to become a branch in the timeline, which was speculated as a possibility both in the story and in-game (heck, the branch thing was emphasized in game because people were working for “a future they will never see” since it won’t change their situation at all. And there’s also the fact there isn’t some Greater Force(TM) to forcibly remove them like in Homestuck (which spends the majority of its time in the strange game/not-game world of Paradox Space).

Think of it like this diagram here:



I color-coded each timeline in addition to the “base” where things happened the same. In the base timeline, G’raha was snoozing in the Crystal Tower. That holds true for both timelines, so think of it as the “trunk” of this “tree”.

The branching point is whether or not the 8th Umbral Calamity occurred. For the doomed timeline, it came to pass and things progressed horribly, which leads to the red “branch”. Breaking off from that branch though is G’raha being eventually awakened and sent back to the trunk at a point well before the Calamity. From here come the events leading up to and continuing until the end of Shadowbringers, where G’raha ultimately merges his mind and soul with his past self, which then continues off on the green branch.

Not pictured is doomed timeline G’raha’s body being left in the First as a lovely statue, but it only serves to cement that everything is as it should be. Because you can’t remove the trunk without removing the branches. That’s Time Travel 101.

In other words, by Occam’s Razor, time travel can never change what has already occurred; only create a new outcome independent of the original. This is actually why the vast majority of time travel plots drive me nuts (including Terminator as much as I love the first two films), but thankfully 14 managed to cleanly avoid that bad trope.

So in any case, yes, while the Ascians sure still exist in the doomed timeline, it’s not our problem. All it means is that a multiverse exists.

Dang, never thought I’d end up talking about Homestuck in detail again anywhere, but I guess it’s true you can NEVER escape the Homestuck. u.u

[Rosenstrauch]

So in any case, yes, while the Ascians sure still exist in the doomed timeline, it’s not our problem.

So long as nothing happens to bring us there, at least. The WoL is usually not the sort to look the other way. Though saying that, I find myself imagining the bizarre scenario of the WoL traveling to the Eighth Umbral Astral Era timeline and discovering that our own future reincarnation was recruited by Emet-Selch and Elidibus to shore up their ranks.

[kujoestars]

So long as nothing happens to bring us there, at least. The WoL is usually not the sort to look the other way. Though saying that, I find myself imagining the bizarre scenario of the WoL traveling to the Eighth Umbral Astral Era timeline and discovering that our own future reincarnation was recruited by Emet-Selch and Elidibus to shore up their ranks.

Funny enough, I was just imagining a “what-if” scenario where my WoL somehow gets dumped into this timeline. I’m not sure the likelihood we’ll see this alt timeline anytime soon, if at all, but it sure would be an interesting way to revisit the Ascians if they ever become relevant again. I personally would like to avoid a Warlords of Draenor type of situation-oh wait, that’s literally ShB, lol. Correction: I would personally like to avoid a Blizzard-type of timeline hopping, but as long as Yoshi-P is still on the team, I’m sure they can pull it off.

While it is true the WoL can never turn away from people in need, they also wouldn’t just ditch their own timeline to fix one where their time was long past while there’s STILL a laundry list of issues. We only ended up on The First, after all, because G’raha pulled us over, and the other Scions were along for the ride by accident.And then it became a “while we’re here, we may as well” type of situation since we’d save the First anyway even if it wouldn’t benefit the Source at all (it was even outright stated). But it’s not something we’d be going ojt of our way to do; just depends if Yoshi-P ever wants to actually revisit that world or introducing even more convoluted time-world hopping shenanigans. Buuuuuuut for now, I’d be happy to not have a horrible repeat of WoW’s terrible time travel plot abuse.

It’s fun to imagine how our WoLs would react to meeting their alternate timeline reincarnation regardless. -w-

Perhaps we can have a sidequest in the future to mess around a bit.

[Morningstar1337]

snip

Doe't XI have alt timelines and traveling through them in more recent xpacs?

[Grimr]

it would seem everyone needs a refresher on why they did time travel in the first place. Eight umbral calmaity hits black rose is used Garlemald magiteck is non functional and other city states are void of aether think the empty but on a larger no honestly think Novrant and the first cause its basically that but eorzea. Emet-set and elibus ( unless they were killed though out the timelines)still exist in that doomed era. I don't even know if middy can reverse that emptiness, not even cid could.

What the exarch said was true the tower needs to go back to eorzea to ensure the 8th calamity of that nature doesn't happen. Until it leaves the first, there will be a calamity of epic proportion that will necessitate the use of the tower again. Maybe when we defeat zenos the tower will vanish. But until it has nothing will have changed.

I will not discuss the 3 timelines of zelda here. My attempted knowledge comes from Chrono Trigger and loz MM ( song of time anyone)

It is simple cause and effect.

[Iscah]

it would seem everyone needs a refresher on why they did time travel in the first place.

I haven't seen anyone here indicate that they do not understand those facts.

Also the Eighth Umbral Era city-states world (and the Empty) are not "void of aether". That description goes to the opposite state, as seen in the World of Darkness.

An umbral (Light) charge brings the flow of aether to a halt. It isn't destroyed, just frozen and inhospitable to life. If you think of aether as water then the Eighth Umbral Era is an ice age.

Up until now we had to assume this was an irreversible effect, to justify the writers' logic that it made sense for them to throw all their ingenuity into saving another version of the timeline over improving their own. The ending of this new story seems to imply otherwise. Perhaps it's not looking as bleak as it once was and the aether is slowly recovering, even though earlier generations thought it couldn't.

What the exarch said was true the tower needs to go back to eorzea to ensure the 8th calamity of that nature doesn't happen. Until it leaves the first, there will be a calamity of epic proportion that will necessitate the use of the tower again. Maybe when we defeat zenos the tower will vanish. But until it has nothing will have changed.

It is simple cause and effect.

You're confusing the cause and the effect.

What the Exarch said is that if the Calamity is averted and the original "dark future" timeline ceases to exist, that may cause the Crystal Tower to vanish along with the entire timeline it came from. There is no "going back to Eorzea". There is no Eighth Umbral Era and no original location in Eorzea for it to go back to. It simply ceases to be.

What you seem to be getting from this information is that the tower must return to where it came from to prevent the Calamity. This is not the case. Even if the Exarch's prediction was correct, the tower's absence would simply be an indicator that the timeline had changed, not the cause of it changing.

Additionally, you're playing with paradoxes if you assume that the necessary outcome is that the original timeline will be overwritten and the tower will vanish. The consequences of that approach form an unresolvable loop:

1. G'raha travelled back in time and to the First to prevent the Calamity.
2. The Calamity is prevented and the timeline overwritten.
3. Because there was no Calamity, G'raha did not travel to the First.
4. Because G'raha did not travel to the First, the Crystal Tower was never moved to the First.
5. Because G'raha and Tower were never in the First, nobody was there to kill the Lightwardens and remove the excess Light.
6. Because nobody removed the excess Light, the First is still full of Light and primed for rejoining.
8. Because the First is still full of Light, Black Rose happens.
9. Because Black Rose happens, eventually G'raha travels back in time to prevent...

If this is the scenario you want to play, where do you stop that paradox loop? Even if it somehow didn't lead to the First being re-doomed, I would find it overly convenient if the tower vanished and nothing else. What happens to the Crystarium? What happens to any technology or building materials they ever derived from the artifacts in the tower? The whole town could literally fall apart - assuming it ever existed. Do people remember he was there, or are the memories erased as well?

The scenario in which the tower vanishes is fraught with paradox and the risk of undoing the very thing it was meant to achieve. Other scenarios allow for time to be altered without this happening. We seem to be in one.

The simpler conclusion is that G'raha's expectation was incorrect. From all the evidence we now have, the specific calamity he came back to prevent can no longer occur. The First's Light has been dispelled and is no longer available to supercharge a Black Rose explosion even if it was set off. Even if a different disaster happens, it will not match the scenario that G'raha learned of as history in the dark future, and events cannot lead to that particular future any more.

The non-collapsing split timeline makes the most sense because it means that G'raha's knowledge of the dark future doesn't form a paradox once that future is "averted". It still exists. He was there, even though he can't return.

My attempted knowledge comes from Chrono Trigger and loz MM ( song of time anyone)

I don't know about Chrono Trigger, but the time travel logic of Majora's Mask is not applicable here.

The Song of Time rewinds time so he can live those three days over and over again, with the things that happened one time not carrying over to the next. Everything resets every time you go back. (Alternately, every time you go back, you're leaving that timeline to its doom and creating yet another one that will probably share the same fate.)

Time travel here is the opposite. Outside of the exceptional circumstances that cause the split in Shadowbringers, there is a single constant timeline and (as seen in Alexander) your time-travelling activities can merge into the sequence of events that were always there. If you go back to a time and place that you previously visited, you will encounter your past self there. You can't simply attempt the same day over and over - either you'll get a pile-up of alternate selves or you're definitely splitting the timeline with each attempt.

Additionally, Link is not coming from the future to change the past, but is simply manipulating the present. Meanwhile Ocarina of Time does involve changing elements of the past to affect the future, but it runs on a completely different style of time logic to what is happening here. The mechanisms are simply not compatible.

The price and frequency of time travel is also very different. Link can move freely through time as often as he likes with no ill-effect, and must do so to drive the plot. G'raha travelled once, at heavy personal cost (again, I think the majority of his crystallisation happened as a direct consequence of the trip) and will not do so again. Once he arrives in the First, the actual time travel element of the plot is over and everything else happens in real time.

[Grimr]

Snip

Let's start shall we
1.
A few posts earlier people were asking why didn't cid just work on getting aether going again. There was no request for it but i thought it would be helpful to bring it up.

2.
It is called the empty for a reason no need to be technical about it. The aether is stale non moving and nothing grows in the empty and absorbing too much aether turns whomever into a stale non aether moving zombie so to speak.

3.
Early on the exarch forbade anyone spending the night in the tower because it could vanish. Now elibus and emet were defeated and the exarch was turned into a crystal but the scion did not go back to eorzea nor did the tower and why is that?? The only logically conclusion one can derive is the future has not changed and i am certain all will be made aware of it in probably 5.4 or 5.5 not entirely sure. I suppose there could be multiple timelines but I'd rather not think about the 8th umbral era timeline cause it is depressing even with middy awakening . There is no going back to 7th astral era state in that timeline.

4.

I suppose chrono trigger is more applicable here than majoras mask but ( and regardless i have played more than enough time travel games to list here) more or less it is cause and effect action and reaction example.. Killing the queen's floating city in chrono trigger what else in the present eliminates it from the future when lavos emerges. Now technically we on the source would not notice it but on the first the tower would disappear and so would the modifications and on that action alone would the future be changed to a point the tower was no longer needed to avoid the 8th umbral calamity.

5
I give the the zenos factor. It is said that zenos destroyed all of black rose because he does not want anything to get in the way of his hunt( also probably why he killed varis). The thing is it safe to assume that he would have also destroyed black rose in the future timeline as well which kinda leaves me to believe black rose may not be responsible for the 8th umbral calamity either so either the exarch lied or se created a plothole.

[Yuella]

Doe't XI have alt timelines and traveling through them in more recent xpacs?

Wings of the Goddess is the time travelling expansion. It dealt with the Crystal War (pre-vanilla) where we (the playable races) beat Shadowlord's army. The expansion actually implied that the Shadowlord would've won if we had not interfered in Wings of the Goddess.

[LineageRazor]

Dang, never thought I’d end up talking about Homestuck in detail again anywhere, but I guess it’s true you can NEVER escape the Homestuck. u.u

The impending death of the Flash player will make it easier to escape the Homestuck. ;_;

I'm glad they're gonna rebuild. But the rebuilding seems to have been something that didn't result from their time travel efforts, so it begs the question of "Couldn't we have just been doing that before?" [/hb]

Well, to be fair, the fact that hope exists is attributable to almost literally a deux ex machina - a dead dragon god unexpectedly came to life and offered to help out. That's not something they could have been working toward, because almost nobody even knew Middy COULD come to life.

The sundered ascians they raise from soul shards are from shards of Ascians who are tempered and predisposed to go along with the convocation.

Emet mentions that while they PREFER to use Ascian convocation soul shard bearers, they don't always. Anyone at all can be raised to be an Ascian - including, theoretically, a bearer of Azem's shard. Now, actually getting that rapscallion to cooperate with their nefarious plans might be another story, since do-goodery seems to be baked in pretty deep...

tl;dr old man yells at cloud of darkness

For whatever it's worth, my issue with it isn't that 5.0's time travel doesn't make sense in a vacuum - the Y-branch is pretty simple. Granted, one hopes it is only a Y, in that case. An infinite fractalling multiverse renders our world (also its own shattered multiverse) not only one insignificant speck in a sea of infinite universal possibilities, but one could argue that it really means we abandoned "our world" to its death to live in a preferable nearby alternative and pretend it's ok because our personal story of it is nice and it works out for us. Moreover, since there would be infinite worlds within which the existence of the Tycoon can never be fully erased, and thus is always potentially accessible, nothing we ever defeat is ever truly dead, and nothing we do cannot be undone, since it could just as easily come back from one of the millions of branches where it still exists. So yes, let us hope it's a Y.

They could always go the XI route - an infinite fractalling multiverse, but one in which the vast majority of timelines are "incorrect" and fade away (or, as was the case in XI, messily devoured by Atomos). Only "sturdy" timelines survive, and we've now been assured that the Exarch's former home is one such sturdy timeline.

Wings of the Goddess is the time travelling expansion. It dealt with the Crystal War (pre-vanilla) where we (the playable races) beat Shadowlord's army. The expansion actually implied that the Shadowlord would've won if we had not interfered in Wings of the Goddess.

More specifically, the Shadowlord only lost because Altana herself stepped in and arranged for him to lose. The resistance members of that now-lost timeline (a stalemate against the Shadowlord), led by Lilith, called BS on the fact that all of their sacrifices and hard-won victories were being rewarded with a one-way trip to Atomos's stomach, and used time travel to try to reestablish their timeline as the dominant one. Their world was a crapsack one, but it was a world they'd shed enough blood and tears for that they rebelled against the idea that a goddess's whim had doomed them all, even if the world that replaced it was a better, more peaceful one. (Though, that peacefulness would come back to bite Altana hard come "Rhapsodies of Vana'diel", when the peace allowed the Cloud of Darkness to encroach.)

Much like this case, that story had a happy-ish ending in which it's implied that Lilisette's departure to the other timeline (to take up Lilith's mantle after her defeat) would cause that timeline to become a stable, alternate timeline safe from Atomos's hunger. (Just why her presence there stablized the timeline was never really made clear.)

[Iscah]

Thanks for the graphic. (I've been meaning to draw out a something very similar but I am terrible at getting around to things.)

In other words, by Occam’s Razor, time travel can never change what has already occurred; only create a new outcome independent of the original.

I'm not sure that Occam's Razor (loosely: simple theories are preferable to complex ones) is the right thing to be invoking, but otherwise yes, more or less.

The time traveller can affect the world around them, but those actions either become part of "how it always happened" or, if they create a situation that is incompatible with what they know as history, that forces time to diverge so the new incompatible events don't affect the original version. The traveller can still remember the events of the original timeline, but they cannot return to it because they have forced themself onto a different path through time.