EX difficulty: which fights are closer to MSQ? Which fights are closer to savage?

[Stepjam]

SoS EX isn't quite savage difficulty, it would need to be a bit more dense and more lethal.

The first fight that comes to mind is Chaos Savage. Both are similar to an extent that the order of mechanics is random. While SoS is more randomized than Chaos, Chaos is muuuch more lethal, you gotta handle the mechanics exactly as intended or someone/everyone will die. With SoS, you can mess up mechanics multiple times and still not die (depending on the mechanic). And the actual resolution for mechanics tends to be pretty straight forward.

But otherwise I do agree, it seems like earlier EXs were more lethal but less mechanically dense. Titan extreme for instance is a pretty simple fight mechanically, it's just everything hurts a lot.

[Driavna]

I've noticed every EX fight since Hades has been labeled "the easiest EX we've ever had" so I tend to take players claiming a fight is easy with a grain of salt. Difficulty is subjective for some people, for example my FC won't go near Memoria but many have e5-7s down and some people hate Suzaku while some found it easy. Shiva Unreal is labeled easy but has quite a tight enrage which allows less mistakes and requires players to know their rotation. Titania has a bit of personal responsibility. For me I'd say Innocence and Ruby have been the easiest, Ruby having a very lenient enrage and a checkpoint.

Hades could have been a bit stricter on enrage. It was long but not quite Shinryu level.

People forget how easy fights can be once everyone has 10 or 20 more ILvL points than the minimum required. Also, is important to note that everything is way easier when you don't have to discover how to deal with any mechanic and just follow a guide.

[Brightamethyst]

It's always interesting seeing where people place Titan in these rankings. From a mechanics standpoint the fight is pretty simple, it's just incredibly unforgiving and requires absolute perfection in a way that most other fights do not.

[segagamer]

Everything released after Sephirot in 3.2 is closer to MSQ dont @ me

[ForteNightshade]

I've noticed every EX fight since Hades has been labeled "the easiest EX we've ever had" so I tend to take players claiming a fight is easy with a grain of salt. Difficulty is subjective for some people, for example my FC won't go near Memoria but many have e5-7s down and some people hate Suzaku while some found it easy. Shiva Unreal is labeled easy but has quite a tight enrage which allows less mistakes and requires players to know their rotation. Titania has a bit of personal responsibility. For me I'd say Innocence and Ruby have been the easiest, Ruby having a very lenient enrage and a checkpoint.

Hades could have been a bit stricter on enrage. It was long but not quite Shinryu level.

To be fair, those people have likely fought Thordan or Sephirot who are leagues above any of the current Extremes except Hades and WoL—who are still noticeably easier. Ruby, at least in my opinion, is close to the easiest EX we've ever had. He can only really threaten you due to his mechanics being a bit janky but otherwise facerolls. Innocence falls short too, if only because his enrage is laughably generous. I recall my 5.0 static having like 12-14 deaths and we still beat him.

[Packetdancer]

I feel like we tend to have EX trials that either have high lethality but simple mechanics (i.e., any mistake is likely to wipe you, but mistakes themselves are less likely), or high complexity but failure is survivable (i.e., mistakes may not cause a wipe, but it's a lot easier to make those mistakes). And different people will find different things subjectively easy or hard. Some folks find they prefer content where any mistake can wipe you, but where the mechanics don't feel as frenetic or complicated to them. Others prefer content with complicated mechanics to dive into, but where any mistake isn't necessarily an end to the run so failure is less punishing.

Some masochists like both: potentially lethal mechanics with some complicated bits. (Apparently, and somewhat to my surprise, this includes me.)

I think the reason Hades had a reputation for being harder than some trials for people was that it kind of swapped those around at one point; one part has what I'd say are simple-but-more-likely-lethal mechanics, and then another part has complicated-but-potentially-survivable mechanics, and people who are comfortable with one but find the other not to their taste would trip up. I've seen Hades EX parties where people struggle to get past the first phase because the failure penalties are not super forgiving, but they can breeze through after the phase transition... and I've seen the reverse, where people coast through the first part and then slam into a wall after phase transition.

(And for people who don't mind either, it's just really... really... really long, potentially adding player stamina/endurance as a failure point after a few pulls that wipe late in the process. ������)

I mean, it's not universal, obviously; the only thing that's absolute is the fact that nothing is absolute. And it's not like each EX can be boiled down into solely the platonic ideal of either end of that spectrum. But watching a bunch of the sprouts in my FC gleefully start tackling Extreme content (through arranged parties, I promise), and looking back on my own experience in the past year, that's the observation I come away with.

[Enjuden]

With current stuff? Honestly, the tank changes pushed a lot of the older EX's into jokes since scaling doesn't even work properly until 71, especially with Gunbreaker/Warrior hitting as hard as a dps, or even harder in some cases. After Seat of Sacrifice, the difficulty significantly lowers. The invuln changes made it impossible to wipe on ARR Primals by doing too well, so I am keeping this in mind too. This is also assuming people can do the fight and not be on the floor 24/7 as per usual when running any content harder than normal/dungeons. This is with no Echo since Echo isn't part of a first run. With Echo you might as well just put everything not current into 'Closer to MSQ'

Closer to Savage
Emperor Varis
King Thordan
Nidhogg
Sephirot
Hades
Tsukoyomi
Seat of Sacrifice

Closer to MSQ
Odin
Shiva (Unreal)
Shinryu
Zurvan (Skip Soar or Disband)
Seiryu
Good King Moggle Mog XII
Byakko
Titania
Suzaku
Ruby Weapon
Rathalos
Susano
Sophia
Titan
Ramuh
Ifrit
Garuda
Bismarck
Ultima Weapon
Ravana
Lakshmi
Shiva (EX)

Last three fights were farmed within a half hour tops when it was current. They were a complete joke then and even more so now. I'd even argue they are easier than some normal/story fights. With the exception of Varis/Thordan/Nidhogg, don't waste your time on EX Trials thinking it will prepare you for Savage. It will not. Older Savage content will prepare you for current Savage content. You're not getting Echo, and the fights have not been nerfed into the dirt like some of these EX trials have been (with the exception of all of Coil). Seriously, take off Echo if you want to prepare for it. You're wasting your time otherwise.

[Liam_Harper]

SoS EX isn't quite savage difficulty, it would need to be a bit more dense and more lethal.

Interestingly, I've cleared this Savage tier comfortably enough, yet I've had to leave 5 SoS groups so far due to bad performance on my part. I would say I'd be fine hopping into a farm PF for any of the current Savage fights but I'm simply not good enough for SoS farm yet even with multiple kills.

I would say SoS is about as lethal as e5-7. There are a number of mechanics in those that you can be hit by and just about live with a little gear and a number you can't just ignore in SoS. We even have strats like uptime football on e6 because that mechanic is almost no threat. The main difference between EX and the first 3 Savage fights is just the dps check really.

[Townowi]

That said, older EX fights are much better used to prepare for later MSQ than for current EX or savage, because it's clear to me now that a given xpac's MSQ does not provide adequate preparation for later xpacs'. Even though I cleared Garuda and Lakshmi EX synced on consecutive days rather comfortably when I was in 4.4, sometimes I regret not pushing Suzaku or Tsukuyomi EX synced before starting ShB. However, knowing the risks of PF, I knew it would have set me back weeks or even months.

[SnowVix]

The DPS check on SOS Ex is so light that risking mechanics for uptime is universally a bad call. It might barely be worth it if everyone is wearing Neo-Ishgardian/Edencall/Idealized mixes, i.e. is at minimum item level, but even then, my first clear was done when he didn't even get all 4 mini-phases out in post-adds.