PSA: Provoke and You.

[ReiMakoto]

The problem here is that such optimization has very little impact on the actual total clear time, even as a PLD. It's less than a minute or two for the entire dungeon.

I simply don't play the game to be on the edge of my seat, mashing buttons trying to achieve that 99th percentile. I'm sorry, but I play games for fun, and shaving 5 seconds off of a boss fight is really not something that really matters to me much, and if it mattered to the other 3 people in Duty Finder, then maybe they shouldn't Duty Finder. Maybe they should run with their Ultimate/Savage FCs instead if they want their 10 minute clears.

Some people need to just chill and lighten up and understand that not everybody worships parsers and damage meters, and they just wanna chill in a MSQ dungeon, expert, trials roulette, whatever.

Now, of course, we don't need people doing like 30-50% of their possible DPS, well obviously. But losing 10% DPS because you're not mashing the buttons so that you squeeze 0.1s between attacks, or going for <0.2s time between an ability is available and using said ability, etc... doing that constantly is exhausting, and simply not fun especially when there's very little need to do that.

I mean... IRL, when you go shopping, do you run full speed down the aisles, and hurry hurry hurry grab everything you need, run back up, and hurry and dump everything on the checkout belt and have everything ready to go so you can hurry hurry hurry out the door, etc? No, of course not.

There's a time to hurry and there's a time to relax a bit.

Relevant meme

I didn't specify I wanted people trying to gun for 99th percentile all the time. As I said its about respecting other peoples time, understanding how your class is supposed to play and doing your best to do it, not everyones best is the same but if you're trying you'll shave 2-3 mins off a run, those 2-3 mins add up. Also Uno reverse no u, if you want a chill relax why don't you run with FC members. In random matchmaking with a clear goal, people should imo respect others time and get to work

Also how dare you call out my shopping habits like that, I feel so attacked rn
edit:

Now, of course, we don't need people doing like 30-50% of their possible DPS, well obviously. But losing 10% DPS because you're not mashing the buttons so that you squeeze 0.1s between attacks, or going for <0.2s time between an ability is available and using said ability, etc... doing that constantly is exhausting, and simply not fun especially when there's very little need to do that.

I mean... IRL, when you go shopping, do you run full speed down the aisles, and hurry hurry hurry grab everything you need, run back up, and hurry and dump everything on the checkout belt and have everything ready to go so you can hurry hurry hurry out the door, etc? No, of course not.

There's a time to hurry and there's a time to relax a bit. In fact, this insistence on being 100% optimal and doing things 100% right at all times is why most people don't think too highly of Savage/Ultimate players. I mean, do you guys do this with non-instanced quest mobs, too, where you run 100% optimal rotations for every open world fight, too? I can't imagine trying to play like that, just seems so pointless to get that mob dead 0.5 seconds faster.

This baffles me, playing "optimally" is not some great chore, of course I do it on open world mobs/fights, its not some great challenge its just hitting your buttons and letting the games buffer handle the rest, your comments about <0.2s don't make any sense lol theres an input buffer and queue, and the game in general isn't that fast, I dont get how its exhausting

[Maeka]

Usually when someone talks about "playing optimally", they are talking about shaving less than half a second off, weaving oGCDs perfectly, having absolutely zero downtime between ability uses, doing absolutely everything perfectly every time.


In that tic tac toe example, that would be like getting out a ruler to make sure your X's and O's are absolutely perfectly centered in-between the squares and written in perfect script rather than simply getting the X and O somewhere inside the square.

Your example with people scribbling all over it and such, are more like what I was referring to with my OP, doing it wrong entirely.

[SnowVix]

As for bosses, personally, I always use the gap closer to pull a boss, and then follow that up with Spirits and then Scorn. Never lost a boss, not once. If I don't have the gap closer because of Level Sync, Shield Lob always works just fine. There may be niche situations like someone mentioned some caster mobs in special pulls in some dungeons, but those are the exception, not the rule.

this is terrible not just for reasons of risking enmity ripping (which it really doesn't as long as you don't have someone with a burst ready, which often happens), but because shitty boss positioning kills people. Doing this on the second boss of the new dungeon will make her first AoE cover about 95% of the arena unless you immediately pull her back, negating the whole reason you pulled with the gapclose in the first place. Pulling with ranged attack will get the boss in melee with you before your next GCD anyway.

[LeonKeyh]

Usually when someone talks about "playing optimally", they are talking about shaving less than half a second off, weaving oGCDs perfectly, having absolutely zero downtime between ability uses, doing absolutely everything perfectly every time.


In that tic tac toe example, that would be like getting out a ruler to make sure your X's and O's are absolutely perfectly centered in-between the squares and written in perfect script rather than simply getting the X and O somewhere inside the square.

Your example with people scribbling all over it and such, are more like what I was referring to with my OP, doing it wrong entirely.

Alright so. I agree with the idea behind you not needing to be "100%" all of the time, but the example in your arguments are all about exerting more energy and time into something to get minimal additional value, whereas his argument seems to be "press this other button instead of the one you normally press." I.e., the same general energy and time to actually get a return on your time.

Either way, I think the argument is silly to have continued this long, you guys don't have to defend your stance with such fervor. I think the only reason you guys have chosen this hill to die on is because you think the other person chose this hill to die on....

[Liam_Harper]

I'm sorry, but I play games for fun, and shaving 5 seconds off of a boss fight is really not something that really matters to me much, and if it mattered to the other 3 people in Duty Finder, then maybe they shouldn't Duty Finder. Maybe they should run with their Ultimate/Savage FCs instead if they want their 10 minute clears.

Good job on invalidating your entire thread.

Who cares if other tanks are spamming provoke or choose to play badly. They're playing for fun and if it mattered to you, then maybe you shouldn't Duty Finder. Maybe you should run with your Ultimate/Savage FC instead if you want a smooth WoD clear. People like you need to just chill and lighten up and understand that not everybody worships class guides and tooltips, and they just wanna chill in a MSQ dungeon, expert, trials roulette, whatever. Maybe you think they're weird, but doing super-optimal robotic tank dps over and over again is rather boring. Sometimes just mixing things up a bit and throwing in a provoke to actually tank, is more fun than being a robotic blue dps all the time.

I hope this has enlightened you on learning to enjoy the game and look at groups with less of an elitist top 1% perfect optimization mindset, such as not randomly pressing provoke mid fight, which is very advanced gameplay for most players, similar to not pressing a gap closer to pull.

[MaraD_]

Relevant meme

As I said its about respecting other peoples time people should imo respect others time and get to work

Technically your meme isnt that relevant. Respecting their time, and playing the game by the rules arent inherently the same thing. (But could be) So I'll be using a different example: "Pulling more than 1 group of mobs to be efficient and save time". Based on how this game was originally designed, along with many other factors that have been implemented over the years, including shadowbringers, its more than likely the game was built with the general premise of fighting 1 group at a time. Any more than that, is the players decision, and neither fully supported, nor fully denied by the developers. (BTW I still agree with your sentiment on a personal level)

Respecting the players time in this example (pulling more groups of mobs), is more equivalent to playing tic-tac-toe twice, one with each hand, at the same time.
You dont expect perfect ambidextrous playing (99th percentile) but the "creators of life" literally gave you two hands, and barely put any effort to stop u from using both hands at the same time, so... (sarcasm) thats evidence that you were meant to use both hands!
(The above ruler example is not the best example, as the suggestion was to measure "how correctly you play" to "winning". To which the example was only semi accurate, but semi inaccurate. So I had to pick a different subject, to make a more fair example)

Despite the negative sounding critique of your post, I actually do support the general meaning of what you're saying. But I disagree with the disingenuous framing of the situation.
"Respecting the players time" is the only part that mattered, and is better explained through example or calls for sympathy. I also feel that you're in a tough spot trying to convince others of "optimal play", due to many social factors, and even some game rules, that make it harder to discuss it. (Also I actually do semi run down the isles when i shop haha)

This game is partial relaxation, and partially a replacement for busy work. Its a grey area, and so it boils down to social etiquette, and how much we're willing to work with eachother. I fall into either camp (relaxation, or busy work) depending on various factors, so I try to match my group, because I can sympathize with either.
But if I made my own group, I'd pick the group matching my play style. (In most cases, its busy work, so I want it over and done with quickly)

EDIT: had to make edits, as I forgot to explain some things, such as why I switched examples.

[Maeka]

Good job on invalidating your entire thread.

Who cares if other tanks are spamming provoke or choose to play badly. They're playing for fun and if it mattered to you, then maybe you shouldn't Duty Finder. Maybe you should run with your Ultimate/Savage FC instead if you want a smooth WoD clear. People like you need to just chill and lighten up and understand that not everybody worships class guides and tooltips, and they just wanna chill in a MSQ dungeon, expert, trials roulette, whatever. Maybe you think they're weird, but doing super-optimal robotic tank dps over and over again is rather boring. Sometimes just mixing things up a bit and throwing in a provoke to actually tank, is more fun than being a robotic blue dps all the time.

I hope this has enlightened you on learning to enjoy the game and look at groups with less of an elitist top 1% perfect optimization mindset, such as not randomly pressing provoke mid fight, which is very advanced gameplay for most players, similar to not pressing a gap closer to pull.

There's a difference between causing wipes repeatedly for the same egregious error that should never be done period, and a 1% deviation in DPS because you decided to use a gap closer rather than throwing your shield or using Provoke to pull.

Using the earlier tic tac toe meme, there's a difference between scribbling random shapes all over the board, and having the X's and Os being slightly off center within the grid squares.

this is terrible not just for reasons of risking enmity ripping (which it really doesn't as long as you don't have someone with a burst ready, which often happens), but because shitty boss positioning kills people. Doing this on the second boss of the new dungeon will make her first AoE cover about 95% of the arena unless you immediately pull her back, negating the whole reason you pulled with the gapclose in the first place. Pulling with ranged attack will get the boss in melee with you before your next GCD anyway.

If you're talking about that necromancer girl, she throws her first Cone AoE at the tank. Well, derrrrr, you walk through her to turn her to the other side of the arena while the rest of the group comes up behind her which is the same thing you'd do for any other boss, other than certain dragons who use tail attacks (you'd turn those to the side, instead).

[Laphicet]

If you're talking about that necromancer girl, she throws her first Cone AoE at the tank. Well, derrrrr, you walk through her to turn her to the other side of the arena while the rest of the group comes up behind her which is the same thing you'd do for any other boss, other than certain dragons who use tail attacks (you'd turn those to the side, instead).

Actually it's programmed to either be thrown in the opposite direction of the tank or to target the person last on the emnity list, I'm not sure which. But I've never had that first cone AOE face the tank or face me when I ran it as a tank.

[SnowVix]

If you're talking about that necromancer girl, she throws her first Cone AoE at the tank. Well, derrrrr, you walk through her to turn her to the other side of the arena while the rest of the group comes up behind her which is the same thing you'd do for any other boss, other than certain dragons who use tail attacks (you'd turn those to the side, instead).

It's literally never thrown at the tank, I spent several days grinding that dungeon to get the new Bard TEA BiS. (I was doing this on tank because I had friends who were grinding red mage & summoner gear as well who were actively progging TEA while I'm still looking for a group, so I wanted to make sure they had the best shot.)

[Aurelius2625]

OP and many people are just wrong.

Provoke ADDS enmity, a certain amount of threat on top of what the top target already has. This is multiplied by tank stance.

Tank stance adds a factor of 10 to all potency generated, and adds that as threat. So a 500 potency move under tank stance does 5000 enmity points worth of threat.

Provoke adds around 450k points of threat under tank stance, about 45k points of enmity without tank stance. That's why when you voke with no tank stance, the other tank, in stance, rips it back, or why a dps would rip if you voked with no tank stance at the start.

In Shiva Savage, she resets enmity in phase 2. It's absolutely necessary to use voke there and it shows clearly that it does add threat, otherwise dps jobs would rip from the tank pretty quickly.

So you actually CAN pull with provoke now, in tank stance. It adds a huge number of threat points on top of w/e the top aggro holder has.