Mentors are toxic omg

[Sumea]

I left my NN quite fast. I was bit chatty but also helpful, especially towards new players usually going in world next to them and walking or driving them into places they might missed out and need to attune to etc.
Granted, I was chatty but I am not sure if that is even against novice network guidelines. Biggest giggle and reason I left was getting roasted by mentor for being too offtopic chatty "again" when I was actually answering someone's question about controllers and I just left the network and removed my status manually.

I feel like mentors are doing it for the crown and not actually be helpful happy go lucky players that do not realize how lonely the leveling route is these days. It is not fun to come to the game and have your only outlet to people at start be that much against communication and loose atmosphere, like people at lvl 44 should be taking it as seriously as raid and only factual cactual questions and answers beeb boob. I dunno what happened to 2013 XIV exactly but to me "XIV has the best and most welcoming friendly community" is a good joke because I do not ignore even casual iffy behavior from some of the snottiest people.

[LariaKirin]

Now you know why the "mentor" crown is a meme nowadays.

[PerrinTaveren]

Since you have explicitly asked for advice I will provide some.

1. Never, and I mean never, put your advice into public/group/alliance chat. That will always be public shaming. Praise someone in public. Punish in private. Either privately whisper the other player or send him a mail later.
2. Always give advice when you and the other person are calm. Attempting to give advice during the "heat of the moment" when your and their stress and frustration are running high will either result you in framing your words very badly and/or having your words received very badly.

You can give advice without shaming anyone. Also i am not "punishing" anyone. And "always praise someone in public" sounds like petting someone in the head while they are burning a house. If there is something wrong, there is something wrong. But i don't go and punish or shame anyone.

Also you contradict yourself by giving me advice publicly.

I made my point in my post, not gonna extend it because it is going to go somewhere else. It is sad that after you read my post, all you got was i am shaming people publicly.

[MagicAura]

Since you have explicitly asked for advice I will provide some.

1. Never, and I mean never, put your advice into public/group/alliance chat. That will always be public shaming. Praise someone in public. Punish in private. Either privately whisper the other player or send him a mail later.
2. Always give advice when you and the other person are calm. Attempting to give advice during the "heat of the moment" when your and their stress and frustration are running high will either result you in framing your words very badly and/or having your words received very badly.

I'm sorry but you are missing the point here. What you are suggesting is possible for players without the mentor status when running normal dungeons. Avoid public humiliation and shaming and all that by correcting arbitrarily someone mid-run. Wait till the end of the dungeon, etc. I get that.

But when it comes to mentors and extreme content, they are there to give advice and try to make things run smoothly. That's why you'll find a mentor in all those extreme trials. If people perceive polite advice as public shaming then the problem is with them and not with the mentor that is trying to help along a flawed run. If you are 45 minutes into an extreme trial and as a mentor you don't try to help the people who are doing it wrong, then for me that's a fail on you. There is also no alternative. People won't learn as if by magic, they need someone to tell them what's wrong with an extremely hard version of content or abandon the content entirely.

Polite advice is not shaming. Or rather it can be but it depends on how the advice is given and what words are used. If shaming happens, then that's a different issue entirely. But what you suggest is not blanket advice and shouldn't be used as such.

[Sumea]

Telling someone objectively how or what is wrong should be OK. Just tact and such. "Okay guys, no worries, you did many things right but the problem is this part that part and stack marker means stack" or whatever.
There is general problem these days with text and people - people insert way too much of their own feelings into someone else's text that the other side did not even intend. Kinda like that scene with Dr. Burry in The Big Short "Are you being sarcastic right now!?" "Laurence.... I don't know how to be sarcastic..." - I like the scene as it points to a condition Burry is likely living with and also how people want to interpret someone.

This is one reason voice is good but I think it is also good for now that there is no ingame voice... Except for console players that do not have USB keyboards as help, which I would highly recommend to anyone who wants to take full enjoyment out of FFXIV on PS4 /5 in future

[SturmChurro]

That's the point of this thread though. It isn't mentorship that is problematic / should be removed. It is the other side of that mentorship system where people are %90 of the time "don't tell me what to do". It doesn't matter like you said if i have a crown or not, but those people don't have a crown, and they are not considered "toxic". That was my point.

Mentorship is problematic because it has no oversight, and full of players giving "advice". There is a legitimate reason a lot of players don't like mentors.

[PerrinTaveren]

Mentorship is problematic because it has no oversight, and full of players giving "advice". There is a legitimate reason a lot of players don't like mentors.

I am saying there is an apple on the table, you are saying there is a peach.
This thread isn't about mentors, it is about people who aren't mentors but act like everything is wrong with mentorship is being a mentor.

You are missing the point. I already told there are toxic mentors. That's not the point. If there is a mentor out there, there is a non-mentor too. And your words say more than you can imagine to support my thread tbh. We all should take criticism better and acknowledge it, while staying peaceful.

Ofc it is bad if mentor is pestering you with advices but well... It is bad if you use cure 1 in a lv80 dungeon too and give reason to be adviced.

[MagicAura]

Mentorship is problematic because it has no oversight, and full of players giving "advice". There is a legitimate reason a lot of players don't like mentors.

I think you are missing the point too. Mentors are simply experienced players. In my 3.5 months playing this game, I have done no extreme trials. This person has done 1,700 extreme trials. It's clear that this person knows a bit more on mechanics and therefore of the game in general. If receiving advice from this person offends me then the problem is with me and not them.

If you expect policing then you're not going to get it because there are no global rules on how to be a "teacher" to inexperienced players because, well, everyone's experience is somewhat different. You can give advice on mechanics and rotations and jobs in general. Whether someone takes that advice on board is on them. A mentor's word isn't law and isn't final and isn't guaranteed to be free of error. A mentor is not someone who knows everything and every mechanic inside out. They are just a more experienced player. If one leaves egos aside, one can have a constructive conversation regardless of whether one agrees with the person pointing out something or not. But in an extreme trial when wipe after wipe happens, i expect the mentor there to speak up and explain mechanics. And if I'm a healer who doesn't know how to heal then I also expect that he'll correct me. No policing required.

[PerrinTaveren]

I think you are missing the point too. Mentors are simply experienced players. In my 3.5 months playing this game, I have done no extreme trials. This person has done 1,700 extreme trials. It's clear that this person knows a bit more on mechanics and therefore of the game in general. If receiving advice from this person offends me then the problem is with me and not them.

If you expect policing then you're not going to get it because there are no global rules on how to be a "teacher" to inexperienced players because, well, everyone's experience is somewhat different. You can give advice on mechanics and rotations and jobs in general. Whether someone takes that advice on board is on them. A mentor's word isn't law and isn't final and isn't guaranteed to be free of error. A mentor is not someone who knows everything and every mechanic inside out. They are just a more experienced player. If one leaves egos aside, one can have a constructive conversation regardless of whether one agrees with the person pointing out something or not. But in an extreme trial when wipe after wipe happens, i expect the mentor there to speak up and explain mechanics. And if I'm a healer who doesn't know how to heal then I also expect that he'll correct me. No policing required.

Mentor roulettes aren't all extreme trials, in fact it covers a really low percantage of it but i agree mostly MagicAura thanks

[SturmChurro]

..

We can all agree then that the community is toxic in general, and people will refuse to acknowledge"advice" whether it's from a mentor or not. The worst are the ones that report players. I have been citing the several threads of "toxic casuals" we have on these forums. There is probably one of them either on this page or close to. All these threads tend to blend when I skim through them.

I didn't actually read your OP, it was too jumbled. I just assumed you are tired of people refusing your advice, on the basis of you having a mentor crown. Like I said though, people will refuse advice whether you had one or not. Having a mentor crown just exacerbates the issue, because of their poor reputation. This community is extremely passive-aggressive. I have discussed these topics before, so it may seem like I am not providing enough info on my opinions and I probably am not to get my point across, but I'll just be repeating myself from the multitude of threads on similar topics throughout this forum.

Mentors are simply experienced players. In my 3.5 months playing this game, I have done no extreme trials. This person has done 1,700 extreme trials. It's clear that this person knows a bit more on mechanics and therefore of the game in general. If receiving advice from this person offends me then the problem is with me and not them.

If you expect policing then you're not going to get it because there are no global rules on how to be a "teacher" to inexperienced players because, well, everyone's experience is somewhat different. You can give advice on mechanics and rotations and jobs in general. Whether someone takes that advice on board is on them. A mentor's word isn't law and isn't final and isn't guaranteed to be free of error. A mentor is not someone who knows everything and every mechanic inside out. They are just a more experienced player. If one leaves egos aside, one can have a constructive conversation regardless of whether one agrees with the person pointing out something or not. But in an extreme trial when wipe after wipe happens, i expect the mentor there to speak up and explain mechanics. And if I'm a healer who doesn't know how to heal then I also expect that he'll correct me. No policing required.

Yeah, mentors definitely do have a high opinion of themselves. Having a mentor crown doesn't necessarily mean you have more experience than someone who does not. I choose not to participate in mentorship, but I could throw one right on, and then to you, apparently, I'll seem more experienced.

I don't expect policing, SE is already stretched thin on resources, as they like to say. Without it the program is largely worthless when it comes to it's intended purpose. Sure, there are some good mentors, but there are a lot of bad. Both in the way they play, and their attitudes, in my opinion. It's a community problem. The joke "great community" or whatever.