If it ever did happen, what would like to see in the next FFXIV MMORPG?

[linayar]

I don't think I'll ever understand this one. The timer is merely what keeps it from becoming an unbearable slog (well, the weekly high may still be, but at least you won't have groups regularly taking take >90 minutes for what should have been <40 minutes each time until then).

You still get the dungeon and weekly rewards, after all, whether you complete on time or not. The only difference is that it doesn't give you an even harder key next time.

I.e. if you don't finish on time, WoW doesn't punish you with a key that will take you even longer. Instead, it'll give you one that is just slightly easier and thereby feel more in your wheelhouse. That hardly seems a player-unfriendly feature.

(For my own part, getting each key to where their rewards and that of the weekly chest were capped was pretty easy even playing very casually, PuGing at least half the group, having terrible loot luck, and doing zero raids, so it's not exactly inaccessible. It just adds an alternate progression experience for those who don't like the pressure of raiding.)

I understand that, but if there is a timer, why wouldn't you want to beat it? At least, that's just me.

As for being an "unbearable slog," I think the tried and tested method has always been to leave the group if it's taking too long. At the high end, there should be ways at incentivizing and keeping the party moving without having a timer.

[Shurrikhan]

I understand that, but if there is a timer, why wouldn't you want to beat it? At least, that's just me.

Why wouldn't you want to beat an Enrage timer? Should we remove those too?

By comparison, the M+ timers are far, far more lenient and still allow you their rewards. They just change the experience from throwing enough corpses at it or having unlimited strategy session time into an actual run.

The progression system merely asks you to get your strategy down to something increasingly more coordinated as you progress up the keys, all while rewarding whatever value you can glean from further gearing. As progression should.

[linayar]

Why wouldn't you want to beat an Enrage timer? Should we remove those too?

By comparison, the M+ timers are far, far more lenient and still allow you their rewards. They just change the experience from throwing enough corpses at it or having unlimited strategy session time into an actual run.

The progression system merely asks you to get your strategy down to something increasingly more coordinated as you progress up the keys, all while rewarding whatever value you can glean from further gearing. As progression should.

But an enrage timer is part of the fight. Like you said, you can still beat the dungeon without beating the timer.

I actually would love it if not beating the M+ timer means failing the run. Then it makes it part of the fight.

[Shurrikhan]

But an enrage timer is part of the fight. Like you said, you can still beat the dungeon without beating the timer.

I actually would love it if not beating the M+ timer means failing the run. Then it makes it part of the fight.

As for being an "unbearable slog," I think the tried and tested method has always been to leave the group if it's taking too long. At the high end, there should be ways at incentivizing and keeping the party moving without having a timer.

And herein lies the crux. Imagine a system like that in XIV's community for instance, where people frequently leave clear parties after a single, even near-enrage, wipe. Any of the first couple pulls a bit slow to die = "Meh, they're probably not going to make it..." = leave the group since it only really directly harms the one guy who started the party = they literally can't refill = automatically failed run.

If the team doesn't look guaranteed to ace it, there'd be no reason to stay and chance wasting your time on the run. Is that really the gameplay loop or community interactions you want? That sounds like a hotbed of toxicity.

Compare that to WoW's more balanced system. Those who miss a week still have reason to help out lower geared players in the climb even if they don't need gear from the run. There's still enough reward behind dungeon completion to make it worth finishing the dungeon, rather than pulling the plug for everyone else the moment things look like they might eventually go sour. Once per week, or once per dungeon that could provide a specific gear upgrade for each in the team, it's totally fine to take your time; they just tend to be listed as 'gear' or 'untimed' parties instead of 'prog' or 'climb' parties. And so long as your intent is solely to climb, a failed timer is a failed run, just with enough reward not to oblige you to grief everyone else. Honestly, it's a surprisingly damn good compromise that supports a huge range of player types and desires.

[linayar]

And herein lies the crux. Imagine a system like that in XIV's community for instance, where people frequently leave clear parties after a single, even near-enrage, wipe. Any of the first couple pulls a bit slow to die = "Meh, they're probably not going to make it..." = leave the group since it only really directly harms the one guy who started the party = they literally can't refill = automatically failed run.

If the team doesn't look guaranteed to ace it, there'd be no reason to stay and chance wasting your time on the run. Is that really the gameplay loop or community interactions you want? That sounds like a hotbed of toxicity.

Compare that to WoW's more balanced system. Those who miss a week still have reason to help out lower geared players in the climb even if they don't need gear from the run. There's still enough reward behind dungeon completion to make it worth finishing the dungeon, rather than pulling the plug for everyone else the moment things look like they might eventually go sour. Once per week, or once per dungeon that could provide a specific gear upgrade for each in the team, it's totally fine to take your time; they just tend to be listed as 'gear' or 'untimed' parties instead of 'prog' or 'climb' parties. And so long as your intent is solely to climb, a failed timer is a failed run, just with enough reward not to oblige you to grief everyone else. Honestly, it's a surprisingly damn good compromise that supports a huge range of player types and desires.

I can see the value in being able to salvage a run. Nonetheless, I think there is also value in keeping a minimum standard, especially for what is supposed to be a high end content. And like you said, it's already a part of this community in other contents.

Also, as long as failure doesn't result in a "lower keystone level," that lessens the impact of a failed run.