Summoner: An action or a dot?

[Luna-M]

Egi-glam...

[HeulGDarian]

Er... my comparison point is the history of the job in general, yes. Because even in games it's a hybrid it still has a clear representation.

And the list is a bit larger than that. You want to cite IV, IX, and X. I can cite... III, V, XI, T, TA, TA2, Dimensions, RK, likely some others. And the ones in IV, IX, and X still are clearly hybrid characters, but they do have a clear Summon versus other job aspect.

Since people keep going i guess i should go ahead and correct this. Im not citing just 4, 9 and 10 , the reason i dont write all of them in every single post is cause ive already done it. It is safe to assume that im citing those as well. Also since you want to include the whole tactics line up of games , instead of taking all 3 as one world , i guess ill go ahead and put in the sequels as well.
My definition includes: FF3 , FF4, ff4 interlude, ff4 after years, FF6 , FF7, ff7 before crisis, ff7 crisis core , ff8. ff9 , ff10 , ff10-2, ff12, ff12 revenant wings , ff13 , ff14 , ff15 .
It is also a definition where the games youre citing can also fit comfortably because a a summoner does more than just summon includes the gameplay ff5 , ff11, ff T , ff TA and TA2 has. Heck in war of the lion you cant become a summoner unless you become a blm and time mage first and even then any spell you mastered you keep it.
And like i said before on the post that you ignored half of it even though i wrote w8 a bit for me to finish at the end, Summoner isnt something you can willy nilly put labels on, cause summons play a bigger role in the world and almost every time they are different.
In ff3 they are monsters
in ff4 the eidolons are creatures living in an alternate world called Feymarch
In ff5 some of them are dead creatures , like the pheonix who came out of a dragon or syldra
in ff6 Espers where humans and animals caught in the magic crossfire of the 3 gods
in ff7 summons are just monsters you call
in ff8 they are creatures of aether that can bond with a humans conscience and the more you use them the more you forget
in ff9 they are manifestations of the planets collective memories
in ff10 they are dreams of the fayth
in ff11 they are split to celestial avatars and terrestrial avatars , celestial ones are creatures sleeping in crystals while the later are creatures serving the goddess altana tasked to protect the mothercrystals
in FF12 they are creatures created by the gods that where then cast down , bound to the realm of the mist and then corrupted
in ff13 they are creatures sent to the l'cie when they are unwilling to finish their mission, if they beat them they will join them
in FF14 they are constructs made manifest from aether and peoples thoughts
in FF15 thay are split to astrals (gods) and messengers and you have to pass their test in order to be able to summon them
in tactics they are just monsters
in tactics advance there are distinction cause there are the totema the five crystal guardians each representing a different race
in tactics advance 2 back to being just monsters
in final fantasy type 0 they are war gods that are created by the dominion of rubrum with the power of the vermillion bird crystal. And most of them kill the user by draining its life force upon summoning.
in dissidia they are just crystals you break in the battlefield and then can equip them with a cap amount of summons.
This should show you that you cant simply have a summoner that just summons, cause summoning is a job created by the circumstances of the world surrounding it. This is why you cant just call that character hybrid and that character moot and this one doesnt matter because almost every summoner is distinctly different.
Imagine if yuna had to only summon , remember the sending? boom gone all those dead spirits are now monsters. What about ff15 who needs messengers or oracle all the gods are just coming down whenever i want them too, that is if i manage to get past their test, i wonder have they considered rock paper scissors. FF8 screw remembering stuff i can now stay there wondering with my imaginary friends , FF type 0 summon one then die. FF14 screw the lack of aether the world can die for all i care the biggest the better, and what are all those spells i learned along the way , i dont need them ill fight using carbuncle and the edge of my book.
Reducing all the complexity of their gameplay and lore that has being building for years to its the guy who simply summons a big thing and goes away , its literally insulting to the job.

[Kazrah]

Biggest issue I see is not how Summoner is now, but rather how will it be going forward in future expansions.

The next expansion rolls around, what will Summoner get? There has been a pretty good level of success and popularity with the Demi primal theme, so perhaps we'd get another, like a Demi-Alexander or something along those lines. Would they try to squish more of that into what seems to be an essay-long opener, or would it be a means of phasing out the starting phase with just you and the egi? The egi may have worth from a 1.0 tradition standpoint along with some nonsense about spaghetti code, but does the egi really have any mechanical purpose or is it just there, especially when more pet actions have been taken away from the pet itself and instead placing that increased burden into the actions of the caster?

It's not because of the here and now that I think egi pets will go the way of the dodo, but because of the job going forward. Call them "iconic" all you want, but that didn't stop the "iconic" sacrificial DPS that was Dark Knight in the Final Fantasy series becoming a tank in this game or the "iconic" armored tank that was Samurai becoming a DPS in this game. Just because something is "iconic" doesn't make it ideal for a game (amirite Blue Mage fans). How or when Summoner gets that overall, I have no idea, but I'm thoroughly convinced that the job will get that Machinist-level overhaul regardless of whatever spaghetti code or other excuse there is out there to keep the job sensible and appealing to players going forward.

[linayar]

Demi-Alexander or something along those lines.

I know there is holy element, but I feel that Alexander is more tied to the element of time in FFXIV, and I don't know how that would work on the level of the job system. Even AST's usage of time is boring in my opinion.

[Amnmaat]

Biggest issue I see is not how Summoner is now, but rather how will it be going forward in future expansions.

The next expansion rolls around, what will Summoner get? There has been a pretty good level of success and popularity with the Demi primal theme, so perhaps we'd get another, like a Demi-Alexander or something along those lines. Would they try to squish more of that into what seems to be an essay-long opener, or would it be a means of phasing out the starting phase with just you and the egi? The egi may have worth from a 1.0 tradition standpoint along with some nonsense about spaghetti code, but does the egi really have any mechanical purpose or is it just there, especially when more pet actions have been taken away from the pet itself and instead placing that increased burden into the actions of the caster?

It's not because of the here and now that I think egi pets will go the way of the dodo, but because of the job going forward. Call them "iconic" all you want, but that didn't stop the "iconic" sacrificial DPS that was Dark Knight in the Final Fantasy series becoming a tank in this game or the "iconic" armored tank that was Samurai becoming a DPS in this game. Just because something is "iconic" doesn't make it ideal for a game (amirite Blue Mage fans). How or when Summoner gets that overall, I have no idea, but I'm thoroughly convinced that the job will get that Machinist-level overhaul regardless of whatever spaghetti code or other excuse there is out there to keep the job sensible and appealing to players going forward.

Yes I have to agree with you. They can't just slap another demi to the already tiring and overly taxing Summoner rotation without trimming something else like the egis. At the same time I don't think they can get away with not adding something new; leaving us with Bahamut and Phoenix only and no new summon in 6.0 would really feel off, so they definitely will have to go through a Machinist style overhaul with Summoner. If it worked for Machinist and they didn't care about the backlash from those that liked the original Machinist then they shouldn't worry about the egi fans either, in my opinion. They should overhaul the job to fit within the other jobs in the game. Summoner as it stands is not clean like BLM, DNC, and even RDM are, it needs changes, in my opinion.

[HeulGDarian]

Yes I have to agree with you. They can't just slap another demi to the already tiring and overly taxing Summoner rotation without trimming something else like the egis. At the same time I don't think they can get away with not adding something new; leaving us with Bahamut and Phoenix only and no new summon in 6.0 would really feel off, so they definitely will have to go through a Machinist style overhaul with Summoner. If it worked for Machinist and they didn't care about the backlash from those that liked the original Machinist then they shouldn't worry about the egi fans either, in my opinion. They should overhaul the job to fit within the other jobs in the game. Summoner as it stands is not clean like BLM, DNC, and even RDM are, it needs changes, in my opinion.

Its not the first time smn has been reworked. This version is itself a rework that was made after they reworked him, same thing happened during stormblood this is the 4th time this job has been reworked. As for the problem the demis have it isnt cause of the egis , nor cause of the dots, its cause they are chained together. The reason as to why they did that is cause like the egis if we were presented with a choice we would go to the most damaging one every time. As for why they didnt care about reworking mch , it was cause it wasnt popular. did it fix all their problems? no they still have latency issues. Summoner on the other hand go check some stats it still is one of the most popular jobs.

[Kazrah]

I know there is holy element, but I feel that Alexander is more tied to the element of time in FFXIV, and I don't know how that would work on the level of the job system. Even AST's usage of time is boring in my opinion.

That was mostly a "for example" thing, just naming Alexander off the top of my head for it when it could easily be any major elder primal we've seen and have a similar set of conversion effects tacked on like with Demi-Phoenix. Could be a Demi-Alexander, a Demi-Shinryu, maybe even a Demi-Eden. All it needs is the appropriate Trance and Enkindle abilities along with some spell changes and BAM, new demi primal for the next expansion.

As for Astrologian's time usage, it's either been removed (speed cards, Time Dilation) or reworked out (Celestial Opposition no longer a stun/buff extender), which I do find curious. Reminds me of a recent interview with Yoshi-P that was brought up in another forum thread about reading up on Heavensward stuff for later.

Yes I have to agree with you. They can't just slap another demi to the already tiring and overly taxing Summoner rotation without trimming something else like the egis. At the same time I don't think they can get away with not adding something new; leaving us with Bahamut and Phoenix only and no new summon in 6.0 would really feel off, so they definitely will have to go through a Machinist style overhaul with Summoner. If it worked for Machinist and they didn't care about the backlash from those that liked the original Machinist then they shouldn't worry about the egi fans either, in my opinion. They should overhaul the job to fit within the other jobs in the game. Summoner as it stands is not clean like BLM, DNC, and even RDM are, it needs changes, in my opinion.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the tens of 4.x Machinist fans out there didn't mind the 5.0 overhaul either, and I think they were more comfortable with doing it to Machinist because it was the least played job among all players. Summoner will be tricky because of the bigger fanbase the job has, but I think it's more a case of necessity rather than popularity. I'd also argue that it'd allow for a simpler gateway to separate Summoner and Scholar too, but that's more a "wait and see" thing.

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

Er... none of that has anything to do with the job, that's a discussion more in line with Primals. And in all of the games with Summoner as a job they manage to do that, except XIV.

[Savagelf]

i like carbruncle to be base sunmmon for summoner and the Egi to be replace with high summon which could happen rgm so that we summon summon the conside with each summon

i also like SE to work on pet jobs and improve them meaning they need put more pets jobs

for summoner
base summon
Ruby Carbruncle=high summon demi-Ifrit
Sapphire Carbuncle= high summon Demi Garuda
topaz Carbuncle high summon Titan
Amezayt Carbruncle high summon Ramuh
diamond Carbruncle high summon Shiva

this why i suggest two new jobs Ranger with Hawk companion Medic with a dog aswell bst and dragonling companion. i would dragonling more open world quest companion but after the next expansion you level at your leasure my suggest with dragonling is more base his or her skill progress on Abrittures increase mind or int make it more magic base strength for dex more pyhsical or range

[Amnmaat]

i like carbruncle to be base sunmmon for summoner and the Egi to be replace with high summon which could happen rgm so that we summon summon the conside with each summon

i also like SE to work on pet jobs and improve them meaning they need put more pets jobs

for summoner
base summon
Ruby Carbruncle=high summon demi-Ifrit
Sapphire Carbuncle= high summon Demi Garuda
topaz Carbuncle high summon Titan
Amezayt Carbruncle high summon Ramuh
diamond Carbruncle high summon Shiva

this why i suggest two new jobs Ranger with Hawk companion Medic with a dog aswell bst and dragonling companion. i would dragonling more open world quest companion but after the next expansion you level at your leasure my suggest with dragonling is more base his or her skill progress on Abrittures increase mind or int make it more magic base strength for dex more pyhsical or range

Ok, this definitely hits 2 birds with one stone. It satisfies those who still love carbuncle/egis as a system, and also those who want the real primals to be usable. I also like how it uses the different gem versions of carbuncle to summon corresponding summons like diamond for shiva.
I gotta give it to you, your idea wins my heart.
But if it's purely up to me I'd just return to the 1 time attack system, but your idea is definitely very compelling.