Thank you SE: WHM is fine where it’s at.

[Cheremia]

Let's just agree to disagree on this one, lol.

Its really just, it SOUNDS like Leylines in Enochian form.
And the more i think about it, the more it's just: Always use on benison, no questions asked. Since it makes your lillies go faster so you have just use pom more. And i guess just spam the lilly heals more to get misery more. And you'll just sit on MORE lillies then.

The ONLY option play would be if benison would make lillies generate slower but people wouldn't care since PoM-stance would do more dps. Since Misery in itself is worth 3 glares, you get back what you heal in a way.



And no i don't have any ideas honestly, i would just rather check stuff like the extra effects of asylum/wings (lets be honest MORE heal is redundant) and fluid.

You COULD make Fluid aura an global-Lilly-skill. A weak one but if you want to kill PoM that bad, then you could make it so that using Fluid gives you the buff. It doesn't need to give misery.
An offensive weaving option instead of always overwriting your own Dia or overhealing because you don't have time to cast.

Not gonna pretend like thats any good idea. Also i'm not saying i don't know what you mean but i personally don't mind that much that lillies are passive... guess it's just me.
I know the struggle of everything going perfectly or well enough and you just "okay how much can i overheal to get a misery" basically... I see Incoclasm as literal lilly heal, same for ELevi. So i'd honestly just take something offensive over anything passive because whats the point of that if its also redundant if it goes well enough...

[Gemina]

There's no debate here. We are brainstorming ideas, so there is no need to agree to disagree. I am not saying WHM MUST be this way. All I am saying is that current WHM might be playable and fun, but it and the other healers have glaring issues, and I don't want a satisfying Misery cast to allow them to be swept under the rug.

As I learn to play other jobs; the jobs that get more attention from the devs. It becomes painfully clear why those jobs are so much more fun to play than healers. And it isn't just because they are DPS jobs dealing damage. It's because they have interactive kits that feel rewarding. There is true consequence to not using their resources correctly, and you can tell that more time, effort, and brain power was put into their design. I want the same for healers, and I want to stop feeling like our kits were slapped together during crunch time because all that matters is that we can meet the healing requirement while being able to assist with damage. This can't continue. It sucks.

Is my idea just Leylines/Enochian for WHM? Maybe it is. And I will gladly take it over what we currently have. I would even take their simple Thundercloud mechanic over what we currently have. At least that makes me pay attention to what's going on in my kit instead of mindlessly playing whack-a-mole and ST spam.

[Cheremia]

You're right, i'm just used to people looking for a fight because of disagreement...

On that note, it might also become more interesting if the Wings and Asylum had different effects too. Like i said, just more healing is... whm can heal enough.

A reason for people to stay in asylum would be nice, if it buffs something something. It doesn't need to be much, just... something.

And if you work around fluid aura somehow becoming an actual part of WHM like it was once. It was fun to weave it in when it still did damage. It didn't matter how much it was, it was something. So i would rather make that useful first and if its somehow related to lillies, would be fine.
I'd take more ideas around fluid aura than on benison since that skill is fine as it is. It could even be somehow be upgraded to flood or something since people really want that, still.
But i'm not that good with coming up with that stuff myself.

[Limonia]

Making Asylum buff something (offensively) would just make it so it's used on CD even if it overheals 100%. It would be like Assize. And WHM would have another oGCD heal less. So it could only be a healing or defense buff or something similar.

I'm currently not doing any savage raids, and I don't know how much of the Afflatus heals are used in speedruns or other optimized play. But are they really not used at all? Are Asylum, Temperance and relying on your co-healer enough for every raid-wide AoE? I only did Ruby Weapon ex and Memoria Miseria ex with pug groups and while I didn't have to use GCD heals all the time, only oGCDs definitely weren't enough. So only because you don't need them in perfect play doesn't exactly invalidate them like Cure 1 or Benefic 1.

Personally, I would like to have lily spell that's an AoE shield without healing attached to it. Maybe with a 90s CD. SCH and AST both have AoE shields and regen. And Temperance isn't a shield. Now the lily heals are all on the GCD and a shield on the GCD wouldn't be all that useful, so oGCD would be better. But even if it's on the GCD you could use it when the boss isn't targetable before a raid-wide AoE instead of mindlessly spamming Afflatus Solace/Rapture during downtime.

[Deceptus]

Playability wise, every healer is technically "Fine".

Problem is, they're not fun. They're boring. You are punished for playing your job well with a $#!T dps rotation. There's minimal (mostly non-existent) buffing/debuffing.

[Gemina]

I'm currently not doing any savage raids, and I don't know how much of the Afflatus heals are used in speedruns or other optimized play. But are they really not used at all?

Personally, I would like to have lily spell that's an AoE shield without healing attached to it. Maybe with a 90s CD. SCH and AST both have AoE shields and regen. And Temperance isn't a shield. Now the lily heals are all on the GCD and a shield on the GCD wouldn't be all that useful, so oGCD would be better. But even if it's on the GCD you could use it when the boss isn't targetable before a raid-wide AoE instead of mindlessly spamming Afflatus Solace/Rapture during downtime.

I don't prog savage either. I have taken my WHM through everything up to Memoria, including Shiva Unreal. They are used, but it isn't necessarily that. If that were truly the case, I would have approached it from a different angle. The issue is the threshold it takes to get through before the Afflatus skills become viable. A lot of jobs bring all kinds of support that eases the pressure off of healers. While this opens up big windows to DPS, it also allows the lily gauge to cap, and so you have to over heal on purpose to prevent it from doing so, and allow for the Misery cast window to open every 90s.

The drawback to a lily dump skill, is that I know how the devs think, and what will happen is it will not nourish the blood lily. As soon as a skill is released that does something other than heal as well as generate the blood lily, it will make the afflatus heals obsolete. That is not a theory; that is the cold hard truth. Since a lily dump skill will result in less Misery casts, I tried to compensate by adding a sustainable haste buff for WHM that also increases the rate in which lilies generate; but I also tied it to the new lily skill ;p

In theory, this would actually make the new lily skill not a dump skill at all, but an entirely new mechanic for WHM. As for Benison being on the GCD, the reason for that is because as a lily skill, it will no longer be bound by the 30s CD. If it is going to be a dump skill, it needs to be on demand and can't be bound by a long CD. You could use up all your lilies on x3 shields if you wanted, but you likely would never do that unless just messing around. I haven't put a whole lot of thought into an AoE Benison, but I don't think that would fly. You are right, Temperance is not a shield. It is a straight defense increase that lasts for its entire duration, while a shield is basically additional HP added to the current. It's not one over the other, but the fact that the WHM would be able to stack them.

[Liam_Harper]

I'm currently not doing any savage raids, and I don't know how much of the Afflatus heals are used in speedruns or other optimized play. But are they really not used at all? Are Asylum, Temperance and relying on your co-healer enough for every raid-wide AoE?

They are definitely used, yes. Afflatus Rapture is often our highest source of healing.

In optimized speed runs you can get away with using them less, keeping them for movement and weave windows or burning them all in downtime when the boss isn't targetable. This generally requires having an AST co-healer since they can take the bulk of aoe healing with oGcd's at 0 dps loss.
For normal players in progression or not doing high-end speed runs for logs, lily heals are your go-to before any regular GcD heal.

While this opens up big windows to DPS, it also allows the lily gauge to cap, and so you have to over heal on purpose to prevent it from doing so, and allow for the Misery cast window to open every 90s.

Overhealing to keep Misery going every 90 sec is actually sub-optimal. Lily heals and Misery are a small dps loss compared to straight Glares, the reason we use them is because it's a much smaller dps loss than other GcD heals. Each lily heal is worth about 225 potency.
This means it's fine to let the lily guage cap if you didn't need the heals and there's no intermission to use them in. You don't lose anything. Whether that's fun, from a gameplay perspective, is another matter but for optimization you can cap them safely at no loss.

[phantomr23]

Part of me likes WHM's current situation, with the lack of weaving windows but heavy raw healing encouraging an interesting kind of optimisation that makes positioning and pre-movement and even bigger focus than it is on BLM, but I'd say I have a few issues after spending a fair bit of time on the class in Savage.

1) Slidecasting is... rough sometimes. It's mostly fine, but even on my usual very low ping it can feel somewhat inconsistent and it feels bad to get a cast cancelled at 0.3 seconds and then manage to pull one off at 0.4 seconds right after. Perhaps this one is just me, so it's the least important issue.
2) The lack of weaving windows is a little harsh. Dia being 45 seconds sounds nice on paper since we have to worry about DoT upkeep less, but it's our only weave window outside of a swiftcast (and guess where the only place we can weave that is) that isn't a DPS loss. Thankfully Afflatus isn't such a huge DPS loss that it ever feels like a problem, but I think at least one more DPS neutral weave window would make the class feel less insufferably rigid considering the sheer amount of oGCDs that should ideally be used more or less on cooldown.
3) Speaking of those cooldowns, some of them are a little weird. Lucid, Benison and Assize all line up nicely in Dia windows... assuming you use them on cooldown. If you miss one then things get really bad. Then you have PoM which basically doesn't align with anything but should also be used on cooldown? It feels like one missed weave on an important skill cascades to an unreasonable degree because of the rigidity.
4) This one's come up a lot but please, Hydaelyn, give us another DPS button that isn't Glare or Dia. There's so little healing required outside of Ultimates and the only thing that WHM can do when we're not healing is spam one button and wait to press the other one once every minute or so.

Giving a slightly more involved DPS system that ties Lillies to damage and involves at least one other instant cast would probably solve a lot of this. My personal idea is this: give us a three step combo that has a Lily charge on the third hit. Five of these gives us a Lily, and every time we get a Lily we get one instant cast spell - let's call it Glare II. The numbers aren't set in stone, but you get the idea; this gives us a little bit more to keep track of, offers some choice and priority of when to use the instant cast spells and lines up a little bit better with some of the more awkward oGCDs.

[Gemina]

Overhealing to keep Misery going every 90 sec is actually sub-optimal. Lily heals and Misery are a small dps loss compared to straight Glares, the reason we use them is because it's a much smaller dps loss than other GcD heals. Each lily heal is worth about 225 potency.
This means it's fine to let the lily guage cap if you didn't need the heals and there's no intermission to use them in. You don't lose anything. Whether that's fun, from a gameplay perspective, is another matter but for optimization you can cap them safely at no loss.

I never said it was optimal. What you pointed out here is in my opening OP in this thread. Welcome to the conversation though.

[NobleWinter]

I always just thought I was bad at slide casting. I never considered that whether or not my spell cast registers would be completely out of my control even if I consistently move at the same interval every time. This also brings me to an important question. Are healers, and by extension all casters, supposed to be slide casting in the first place? Square has to know we use this technique for optimization but it definitely isn't recommended anywhere in game. Just what is the ideal playstyle for a healer to Square? Is constantly clipping the intention? I wish we had footage of healers being played the way they expected us to so we could see what the design intention is now. This mystery of healer philosophy is why I switched to Ninja. I know what is expected and it's fun to do it. Healing is nothing but gray area. You might get kicked for using rescue. Repose is questionable at best in most content. Over healing seems like what our kits are made for but you're judged by your dps. Just what is going on?