The echo and Hydaelyn's contact

[Theodric]

Well, it wasn't so long ago that some posters around these parts were fiercely denying the possibility that Hydaelyn was a Primal. That particular theory was proposed here and shot down rather nastily before the official reveal that came with the Shadowbringers pre-launch trailer. Then, even when the scene involving Emet-Selch was seen in-game the narrative shifted to accusing Emet-Selch of lying. It's only recently - almost a year later - that such a plot point has been swallowed properly. I'd say the plot could go in quite a few different directions at this point and pretty much all the predictions based around her being 'benevolent' should be taken with a hefty pinch of salt.

[ShadowMeowth]

There is something about Hydaelyn's nature as an alleged anti-primal-primal that irks me the most, and it is this saying that I do not know how it is phrased in English, but it goes more or less like: "He who fights monsters becomes a monster himself." You know, the problem with moral superiority. When you believe yourself entitled to pass judgment on others, losing sight of your own flaws and ending up considering yourself above this very judgment. I believe the trope was called something like "Holier than Thou"? Whatever. Perhaps Hydaelyn has not bad intentions per se, but after eons of being the undisputed goddess and revered as such, that could have had an effect. I am reminded of how She presents Herself to others: "I am Hydaelyn. All made one." I will not claim that I know what exactly She means by that, but Her origins do not suggest She is "all made one" at all.

[Morningstar1337]

There is something about Hydaelyn's nature as an alleged anti-primal-primal that irks me the most, and it is this saying that I do not know how it is phrased in English, but it goes more or less like: "He who fights monsters becomes a monster himself." You know, the problem with moral superiority.

The quote (from Nietzche BTW) goes like this: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"

But yes there is a large risk that Hydaelyn, would be corrupted by the eons of being what is basiclay the FFXIV version of Yahweh for so long. And thus more likely to take the "my way or the highway" mindset. In fact I do think the story would inevitably go to that point as we learn more about Azem and exactly why they didn't side with Venat's faction.

It if also worth noting that IIRC she was referred to as the "will of the star" (and there were other implications as such, the Source was named after her after all) which meant that she likely usurped Zodiark's role as such when she sealed him. But it also brings some subjectivity to the title as it was also speculated that the Final Days was a reckoning, a revengance on the Aumarotines from the planet itself, as well as Zodiark being incarnated to be the will of the star.

[ShadowMeowth]

The quote (from Nietzche BTW) goes like this: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"

But yes there is a large risk that Hydaelyn, would be corrupted by the eons of being what is basiclay the FFXIV version of Yahweh for so long. And thus more likely to take the "my way or the highway" mindset. In fact I do think the story would inevitably go to that point as we learn more about Azem and exactly why they didn't side with Venat's faction.

It if also worth noting that IIRC she was referred to as the "will of the star" (and there were other implications as such, the Source was named after her after all) which meant that she likely usurped Zodiark's role as such when she sealed him. But it also brings some subjectivity to the title as it was also speculated that the Final Days was a reckoning, a revengance on the Aumarotines from the planet itself, as well as Zodiark being incarnated to be the will of the star.

That one, yes. My philosophy lessons are a bit rusty, I did not even remember it was Nietzsche's, but for some reason I recalled the quote.

Having replayed Heavensward, Stormblood and Shadowbringers at least five times because of alts, I do not recall Hydaelyn ever being referred as "the will of the star". That has only been said of Zodiark. Which adds insult to the injury, to be fair, because not only Hydaelyn was not created to act as such unlike Zodiark, but She became synonymous with the name of the star. The planet probably had another name back in the Ancients' time, and if it was not "Zodiark", then I highly doubt it would be "Hydaelyn". When Lahabrea called Her a "parasite" in Praetorium, welp, I am afraid he was not exactly lying. I think it was all part of this ruse to hide the truth: perhaps, no matter Her efforts, there remains a figment of Ancient memory in sundered souls (see the Echo PTSD triggering) that might recall something about a great being named "the will of the star"; because these memories would be hazy and fragmented, it would be easy to pose as such since, you know, the real owner of the title has pretty much been silenced and those who remember Him deemed liars and seekers of the apocalypse.

[Veloran]

Do you have a quote for that? Especially the killing part?

It only comes from the statement that he must be resurrected.

Regardless, Hydaelyn sundered him and bound his lingering essence in the moon across the shards, where he's lain for 12,000 years. In terms of Primals, that is as dead as one can possibly get. I don't think we have reason to believe that he has either the will or capability to temper anyone.

[Katie_Kitty]

My guess is that "Hear, feel, think" is Hydaelyn's way of protecting people from tempering. Since Hydaelyn was summoned to be a counterbalancing force against Zodiark, I believe she was created specifically with the ability to prevent and maybe even reverse tempering. The way she ended up doing that is by constantly broadcasting her power, in the form of a voice, to people with the ability to hear her.

[ShadowMeowth]

My guess is that "Hear, feel, think" is Hydaelyn's way of protecting people from tempering. Since Hydaelyn was summoned to be a counterbalancing force against Zodiark, I believe she was created specifically with the ability to prevent and maybe even reverse tempering. The way she ended up doing that is by constantly broadcasting her power, in the form of a voice, to people with the ability to hear her.

Which is more or less fighting fire with fire and in the end it is no less than Hydaelyn's "tempering". Ifrit said quite early in the story that we were "already claimed", and even Ardbert muses about her "blessing" after the Ravel's events. Emet mentions Zodiark tempering them and describes it as: "It was only natural. There's no resisting such power." This implies Zodiark tempered the Ascians rather unwillingly. If His command was "hope / deliverance / salvation" this might explain why the Unsundered were compelled with such determination to accomplish their mission, in their eyes the salvation of all. But it did not rob them of free will, each of them had their own method and in fact Emet was willing to abandon the Rejoining course should we pass his trial (of course, we failed spectacularly until Ardbert and it was too late by then).

I would say most of the mystery resides on Hydaelyn's command. That and her ability to enervate. She /divides/, not just physically but ideologically as well. I do strongly believe in individuality, but there has to be a counterbalance to come together as one in times of need, and /that/ is Zodiark's power and embodiment, how He came to be. The Ancients had a fairly balanced society in this aspect because they expressed individuality in ways that would not make them feel different from others, neither better nor worse.

But I digress. "Hear, feel, think" might be phrased as a protection of sorts, but if it is meant to signify "hear by yourself, feel by yourself, think by yourself" then what is the point of someone else commanding us in the first place? That command causes a predisposition to Her influence. It began as something handy to have when dealing with primals... until She started issuing commands such as "the Ascians cannot be suffered to exist" because of skewed storytime. And then Zenos reveals the Echo by itself is enough to counter a primal. Zenos does not seem to have the "blessing of Light", neither does Fordola. The Resonant are individuals with an artificial Echo, yes, but untouched by Hydaelyn as well. And they are immune to tempering the same. Room for thought.

[Kesey]

I think a key concept about Hydaelyn we need to keep in mind, is that she is a primal. She will stop at nothing to continue her chosen mission until she is dispelled into aether.

Now, when I think back to the cutscene following Anemnesis Anyder, Venat and 12 other Ancients that support summoning Hydaelyn make the remark that summoning Zodiark isn't a fix the problem and will only prolong the end of the world. So the permenant solution is to summon Hydaelyn.

Hydaelyn, being a primal, like all the primals after her, needs to feed off the aether of the planet. This is ultimately why Zodiark was summoned in the first place, as aether depletion due to creation magic brought about the end of the Ancient's world. I believe that Zodiark rewriting the rules of reality, stops the end, but at the same time continues to deplete the source that caused that end, bringing a second end of the world.

So Hydaelyn will be a villain if she is doing this exact same thing. The plot points that need to be cleared up first, like if Venat designed her not to do this (which may be why she's out of running out of power). Or, her use of aether as fuel is the reason "ancient" Azem didn't side with either Hydaelyn or Zodiark factions. Until we know these answers, Hydaelyn as a villain is a very real option.

[Cilia]

It is true that Hydaelyn is a primal. But.

Primals are only dangers if they're summoned / manifested on the material plane; as far as anyone can figure Hydaelyn is not. She's in the aetherial sea where primals go when not manifested, which is why it takes so much energy for her to so much as communicate. Even worse, due to intervening to protect us from Ultima, she's so weakened she needs to use Crystals of Light as batteries to do so.

Hydaelyn is not a permanent solution; at least I don't think she was intended as such. Her purpose is singular: restrain Zodiark by any means necessary. The sentiment behind this is that Zodiark is not a permanent solution to the problem, and that the future should belong to those living in the present rather than those selfsame lives being offered up as sacrifices to bring back those that died in the past. Ideally more research into the sound would have been carried out if not for the Sundering, but either way Zodiark had to be restrained to stop the world from stagnating. (How ironic fate can be.)

It's unclear what caused the sound that caused the Final Days. Popular belief is that it was a consequence of some sort due to creation magicks, but we still have no information on what caused the sound or why.

Hydaelyn is weak because she has no mortal worshipers and no ready source of aether, as well as lending us what strength she can spare to help us defeat the Ascians and unmake their plots.

Despite being a primal, Hydaelyn's raison d'etre is to stop Zodiark from consuming new life to resurrect the dead; to anyone's knowledge she pursues no other agenda, even if the "by any means necessary" clause really means by any means necessary. To anyone's knowledge she is also not on the material plane, thus any aether consumption on her part is unlikely to be a danger. The only reason we'd really have to go against Hydaelyn, based on the information we have now, is if we needed Zodiark off his chains to stop something like the sound coming back... but even that might not be a wise idea considering captive primals are given to rancor when let loose, and like Venat and her followers said it wouldn't really solve the problem.

I don't deny that Hydaelyn's hands are no cleaner than anyone else's, but I earnestly do not see her becoming villainous antagonistic.