Summoner: An action or a dot?

[MirronTulaxia]

You think that im trying to appeal to you? im trying to correct the misinformation of what is and isnt a summoner. You cant pick what matches your point of view and then discard the rest, and this is what you are doing , especially when out of all the game a total of 3 from the main series , arguably 2 had a pure summoner , 1 of which had a system akin to current egi system, and from non main series we have a total of 4 , arguably 2 since 3 of them are an actual series, unlike the main ones which each is distinct between them.

The point isn't whether any particular character was a pure job. The point was "can we look at these jobs and say what they actually are". And... you can. You can look at III. You can look at IV. You can look at V and so on and so forth all the way to Dimensions and get a clear idea of what a Summoner is. Whether or not any individual character was a "pure" Summoner is moot, a lot of times characters aren't purely one job in games like that. Are we to look at Rosa and say "well all White Mages should be Rangers"? Are we to look at Kimahri and say "well all Dragoons should be Blue Mages"? No, because that's a ridiculous stance. And ultimately that's what you're putting forward. We don't have any pure "White Mage" characters, yet here in XIV we could manage that. They could have done the same with Summoner.

And you're distorting information and acting like it's meaningful. I'm not misrepresenting information nor am I lying, which is what misinformation would be in this case. I can back up my case with every single game. They make it abundantly clear what falls where.

[HeulGDarian]

The point isn't whether any particular character was a pure job. The point was "can we look at these jobs and say what they actually are". And... you can. You can look at III. You can look at IV. You can look at V and so on and so forth all the way to Dimensions and get a clear idea of what a Summoner is. Whether or not any individual character was a "pure" Summoner is moot, a lot of times characters aren't purely one job in games like that. Are we to look at Rosa and say "well all White Mages should be Rangers"? Are we to look at Kimahri and say "well all Dragoons should be Blue Mages"? No, because that's a ridiculous stance. And ultimately that's what you're putting forward. We don't have any pure "White Mage" characters, yet here in XIV we could manage that. They could have done the same with Summoner.

And you're distorting information and acting like it's meaningful. I'm not misrepresenting information nor am I lying, which is what misinformation would be in this case. I can back up my case with every single game. They make it abundantly clear what falls where.

Im not distorting it, i take all the things you discarded as meaningless , cause they didnt fit your point of view and tell you they do mean something.
When they introduce yuna as the grand summoner, ready to do her pilgrimage , do you think they also put small letters below her name saying "but she can also use white magic"? ,
Do you think Rydia someone from the pure blood summoner families , shouldnt be called such cause she knows black magic as well? ,
What about eiko with her summoner horn, you know the thing literally needed to talk to summons in that universe, should we also put some small letters on it saying "actually whm".
These are all characters that according to you are moot, and shouldnt be taken into account. In almost every game there is a summoning system ,some are more different than the other like in the case of ff8 and ff13, but even then you cant just say they are moot just cause there isnt a job there called summoner.
ill say it again , what they did in ff14 is simple , instead of giving it a sub system of black magic , or white magic they instead gave summoner its own rules of summoning , that he could apply to do more than summon.
You think that its something as irrational as saying blue mages should be dragoons. it isnt because we re not talking about something as farfetched as a melee fighter and a spell caster, we re talking about 2 mages who in many iterations have shared space and now they split them apart, should bio have gone to the blm since it was categorised as black magic? NO cause it doesnt suit him, it fits perfectly a job like summoner cause unlike black magic , summoning takes time to do in this game. Summoning something that most ff games have it reduced on a cast time is now an active thing.

[MirronTulaxia]

Im not distorting it, i take all the things you discarded as meaningless , cause they didnt fit your point of view and tell you they do mean something.
When they introduce yuna as the grand summoner, ready to do her pilgrimage , do you think they also put small letters below her name saying "but she can also use white magic"? ,
Do you think Rydia someone from the pure blood summoner families , shouldnt be called such cause she knows black magic as well? ,
What about eiko with her summoner horn, you know the thing literally needed to talk to summons in that universe, should we also put some small letters on it saying "actually whm".
These are all characters that according to you are moot, and shouldnt be taken into account. In almost every game there is a summoning system ,some are more different than the other like in the case of ff8 and ff13, but even then you cant just say they are moot just cause there isnt a job there called summoner.
ill say it again , what they did in ff14 is simple , instead of giving it a sub system of black magic , or white magic they instead gave summoner its own rules of summoning , that he could apply to do more than summon.
You think that its something as irrational as saying blue mages should be dragoons. it isnt because we re not talking about something as farfetched as a melee fighter and a spell caster, we re talking about 2 mages who in many iterations have shared space and now they split them apart, should bio have gone to the blm since it was categorised as black magic? NO cause it doesnt suit him, it fits perfectly a job like summoner cause unlike black magic , summoning takes time to do in this game. Summoning something that most ff games have it reduced on a cast time is now an active thing.

They are all characters that are not just one job, yes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. But let's shift this a bit.

Your argument is basically that, because no character is ever a pure Summoner, there shouldn't be a pure Summoner job in XIV. Yes or no?

Ah what a delicious can of worms this has become.

Also I think the point your missing is that Summoning in general changes from game to game there is no end all beat all regarding what is right or wrong. The point is calling forth monsters (of eld) to fight for you. it in the similar fashion to how technically Pictomancer is a spoof on Beast Tamer, or how SCH and RDM are two sides of the same coin when you think about it. Each job just has a "defining" trait, that sets it apart from the rest, and for SMN that's summoning.

My point has never been "we shouldn't have Egis", so you're misunderstanding the point. The point is they should have Summons and only that. I can point at that throughout the series and it's true.

[HeulGDarian]

They are all characters that are not just one job, yes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. But let's shift this a bit.

Your argument is basically that, because no character is ever a pure Summoner, there shouldn't be a pure Summoner job in XIV. Yes or no?



My point has never been "we shouldn't have Egis", so you're misunderstanding the point. The point is they should have Summons and only that. I can point at that throughout the series and it's true.

Are you going to repeat the same pure summoner , pure summoner like a broken clock? Im saying 2 things.
1) You arbitrarily picked whats a summoner , you literally said its cause of the old games that summoner exists, and youre ignoring more than half of them, cause it doesnt fit your view.
2) FF14 summoner is a pure summoner. It removed the need for it to spec on the blm, or whm school of thought by giving it its own distinct skillset of magic. THIS is the upgrade the identity of the job needed, whether you like it or not.

You talked about how in ff3 and ffv and ff11 the summoners are pure cause they just summon, but even in those games you could and should still tie abilities and magic from other jobs. in ff 3 it was sage , in ffv any other job you wanted ,in ff11 guess what , you had subjobs that you needed to equip. Now that they gave it the spells that youd have to be on other jobs to get , now it isnt a summoner?

[MirronTulaxia]

Are you going to repeat the same pure summoner , pure summoner like a broken clock? Im saying 2 things.
1) You arbitrarily picked whats a summoner , you literally said its cause of the old games that summoner exists, and youre ignoring more than half of them, cause it doesnt fit your view.
2) FF14 summoner is a pure summoner. It removed the need for it to spec on the blm, or whm school of thought by giving it its own distinct skillset of magic. THIS is the upgrade the identity of the job needed, whether you like it or not.

You talked about how in ff3 and ffv and ff11 the summoners are pure cause they just summon, but even in those games you could and should still tie abilities and magic from other jobs. in ff 3 it was sage , in ffv any other job you wanted ,in ff11 guess what , you had subjobs that you needed to equip. Now that they gave it the spells that youd have to be on other jobs to get , now it isnt a summoner?

So then, your argument is that... no jobs are pure jobs, but Summoner is the only one who has to suffer for it. :P Sheesh, at least pick a reliable stance. You're making a lot of nonsense up to try to justify this.

Here is the gist of it. Every one of your points made about Summoner apply literally to White Mage. By the logic you are using White Mage should not purely use White Magic, yet it does here. And no, Stone/Aero/Water are not qualifications for it being a hybrid job like Summoner is, there are precedents for White Mage having elements outside of Light in the past which clear that, nor is Geomancer specifically those elements. Cutting off your bad argument ahead of time. So then, we are left with why they could not do for Summoner what they did for White Mage. Which is... treat it like a proper job with its own identity instead of grafting on some bizarre alien one to it on top of Summoner. And you have yet to provide an adequate explanation for that.

Let's go through the history of the series though, since you seem intent on trying to act like you are remotely an expert on the matter. There are three broad categories as far as FFs go. Jobs, Characters, and Systems. Jobs use a Job system. This first shows up in FFI and most recently with FFXIV numerically speaking. There are a lot of variations. Characters is what it says on the box. Characters have a specific way they work, you can't majorly modify them, the big difference between this and Systems is how much of a blank slate the characters are. For instance VI straddles the line between the two, as the System it uses, magicite, is pretty important. Systems are ones where the characters are, mostly, the same. They may have minor stat differences, Limits, but usually they don't have anything beyond that. FFX is one where you could argue too that it straddles the line between System and Character, because although there is a system in place the characters starting points are defined.

In all Job System games, Summoner can be mixed and matched with another job outside of FFIII (there is possibly some other exception but I'll speak generally rather than worry about maybe some obscure instance). All jobs can be mixed and matched with other jobs, this is not something exclusive to Summoner. There isn't a "Summoners must be paired with other jobs, but White Mage gets to go home free". The one exception where you can not mix and match jobs is FFIII. In the NES version, Sages are superior to all magical options. Just as Ninjas are superior to all physical options. Sages outstat Magus and Devout, not just Summoner. It isn't a direct upgrade to Summoner any more than it is to Magus or Devout. The same argument you use against Summoner applies to the others as well. The most logical answer, especially in light of the DS remake, is that Sage is its own thing. Sages mix and match schools of magic, and is closer to an upgrade to Red Mage than it is to any of the other magic jobs.

In character based games, most characters use a mix of jobs. In FFIV, the first character based game, Cecil is a mix of Warrior and White Mage (while this is the first instance of Paladin, it was still in the process of getting defined). Edge is a Thief and a Ninja. Rosa is a White Mage and a Ranger. Rydia, whom you are trying to argue against, was a Black Mage and a Summoner. Only Kain, of the original final cast, is solely a Dragoon (though this later changes in the sequel that's a whole different can of worms). Although the side characters generally manage to be single job individuals, as they weren't the feature of the game it's hardly surprising they're... not underdeveloped per say, but certainly not as robust. In IX characters again have a mix of jobs. Steiner is a mix of Knight, Mystic Knight, Holy Knight, and Dark Knight. Amarant is a Ninja and a Monk. Eiko and Yuna, as you point out, are White Mage and Summoners. Note, again, neither of them are pure White Mages, yet White Mage is again fit to be its own thing. Zidane, Freya, Vivi, and Quistis instead get one job but expanded abilities for them (or in the case of Vivi/Quina a specific command that helps them do their thing). X is one of those ones where it's a split the difference kind of case, but as the original was specifically limited to how characters advanced and the bulk of the game was that way I'll count it here. In X, again you see characters doing rather unusual stuff. Of them the only one who really works like a pure job from previous games was Lulu, she's pretty clearly a Black Mage. Tidus is an unusual Fighter who uses Time Magic. Auron is a Samurai with Knight skills. Rikku is a Thief and a Chemist. Wakka is... arguably a Ranger, with some odd Black Magic. Kimahri is a Blue Mage/Dragoon with a flexible starting point, one could certainly make a case for him being something along the lines of a Red Mage for that. And yes, Yuna is a White Mage and a Summoner. Note again that White Mage isn't off on its own. XIII as far as numerical games go is the last one that one could argue is character based, as the characters each are unique even if they have access to all the roles, it's kind of a weird one but again I would count it. None of the characters really line up to jobs specifically though outside of weapon use so it's rather moot.

Which brings us to system based games. System games usually have a broad system that lets you develop characters in whatever ways you want. There really aren't dedicated jobs, if there were it would be under the job system category. In these games you generally still see some sort of system for Summoning, just like you see something for healing/buffing/debuffing/magic damage and so on. None of these games have a job really, the best you tend to see is some limits which maybe emulate the idea of a job, but that's about it. In VI (arguably a system-based game) there isn't really a dedicated Black/White Mage or the like, the magic system is divided entirely differently. That and magic is kind of... well, a big deal, so not exactly surprising. Not really much to say as it kind of operates in its own way.

What's the sum of all of this? That, again, the points you're levying go against most jobs depending on how you look at it. In a system game no job is represented. Summoner tends to come out ahead because it usually still gets something resembling a unique presence, but there still isn't a job system in place. In a job system game all jobs are treated the same. There isn't anything specifically saying "you must pair Summoner with something". You tend to pair jobs up in general and mix and match, because that's how it works, but that isn't specifically a Summoner issue. Which leaves character based games, which is really the only one that you have as anything resembling a saving grace. Except, again, most characters tend to be hybrids. It's not exactly uncommon for people to have a diverse array of talents. And, specifically, your point goes against White Mage just as much as Summoner. Yet of the two, Summoner is the only one clearly not working like it has in the past. White Mage fits the theme, certainly tweaked a bit to fit XIV specifically, but what happened to Summoner is entirely unrelated to that. In the end, Summoner is not in line with the series, and that's specifically the issue. Instead of trying to say it is you should just accept it isn't, because your defense of it is weak and lacking in data to support it. When you're trying to claim Sage, a job that clearly is doing its own thing, as an upgrade to Summoner alone and specifically, you're making a poor argument that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

[HeulGDarian]

stuff

Whm can stand alone cause of the scale difference he has compared to summoner.
Compare Holy to alexander
Tornado to garuda
Water to Leviathan
Raise to pheonix
Same goes for blm
compare meteor to bahamut
Death to odin
thunder to ramuh
ultima to ultimate summon ( eden , knights of the round , zodiark, etc)
Not only that summoner has summons that create effects that those jobs would kill to have.
image
tri-disaster or disintegration
Sonic dive
runaway train
triple double
vanish

[Eloah]

Stuff

Ah what a delicious can of worms this has become.

Also I think the point your missing is that Summoning in general changes from game to game there is no end all beat all regarding what is right or wrong. The point is calling forth monsters (of eld) to fight for you. it in the similar fashion to how technically Pictomancer is a spoof on Beast Tamer, or how SCH and RDM are two sides of the same coin when you think about it. Each job just has a "defining" trait, that sets it apart from the rest, and for SMN that's summoning.