The State of the Ascians (Assume Spoilers as of TODAY)

[ShadowMeowth]

(Continuation of the above.)

• We carry Emet-Selch’s wish. The Angel of Truth considered us worthy of knowing the history of the world and the nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark. He hoped to come to a point in which bloodshed was not needed, that mankind might once reach the heights of the Ancients, and that both sides might come to understand and respect one another. We, as half-mortal-half-Ancient, are the best bridge Emet could have ever wished for, and by our deeds it has been many times shown that mankind can be brought together and achieve great feats, just like the giant Talos in Kholusia.
• We carry Elidibus’ wish. With this patch we do know that 1) he was the original Warrior of Light and inspiration of all heroes, 2) his position as Emissary truly means “reconciliation”. This could go two ways: reconciliation between the disagreeing members of the Convocation, and reconciliation between two opposing sides in a broader meaning. And then there is his belief that, once everything is over and their purpose is fulfilled, they will all meet again.
• And while he did not entrust the role to us, we are the only one left to fill Lahabrea’s role. Which, of course, was of the Speaker for the Convocation. The (Abyssal) Celebrant was who held the ceremonies for welcoming new members to the Convocation, and probably who would act as the order’s representative given that they were fourteen and they needed someone to convey their collective decisions to the people. But now Lahabrea is gone, his soul eaten by King Thordan, and the only one left to speak for the Unsundered is the WoL/D.

Now, Fandaniel thinks the sundered Ascians are free to do as they please. Apparently we are going to remind him that allowing Zenos to set the world ablaze is definitely not the will of the Convocation. But there is something else that could be interesting in this tale of which-side-are-you-on: Fandaniel is the only remaining sundered Ascian we have seen after the Unsundered were defeated, and we know that Nabriales, Igeyorhm, Emmerololth, Loghrif and Mitron are gone as well. Which leaves other four sundered Ascians besides Fandaniel that are still alive: Altima, Halmarut, Deudalaphon and Pashtarot.

Which begs the question: what will be the stance of these Ascians? It would be too easy to brand them as the same ilk as Fandaniel and assume we will have to fight them all. But the main lesson in Shadowbringers is one of bridging the differences and bring the stars together. I have little doubt that maybe one or two will support Fandaniel’s approach, but as we are now the heirs of the Convocation’s will and the closest to the Unsundered, perhaps others will rally to our side if they believe in their duty of ages past.

[KageTokage]

The thing is that if the sundered Ascians are still tempered, they're fundamentally driven to push towards Zodiark's revival even without the unsundered pulling their strings.

That said, I'm not convinced that Fandaniel isn't just bluffing to get Zenos to trust him. I reckon it's going to be a case of who backstabs the other first in the end.

[Starkbeaumont]

(Continuation of the above.)
[LIST][*]We carry Emet-Selch’s wish. The Angel of Truth considered us worthy of knowing the history of the world and the nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark. He hoped to come to a point in which bloodshed was not needed, that mankind might once reach the heights of the Ancients, and that both sides might come to understand and respect one another. We, as half-mortal-half-Ancient, are the best bridge Emet could have ever wished for, and by our deeds it has been many times shown that mankind can be brought together and achieve great feats, just like the giant Talos in Kholusia.

I really have to wonder why he founded the garlean empire and run it for so long when he wanted peace and friendship after all

[Morningstar1337]

I really have to wonder why he founded the garlean empire and run it for so long when he wanted peace and friendship after all

Presumable because he wanted Auamrot back more, and knew that fascist empires were the fastest way to causing the chaos needed for the rejoining. and He also expressed disdain at the sundered, considering them inferior in a way that seems like master race ideology (incidentally something that also seems prominent to Garlemald, considering their disdain for the "beastmen" and that they use their "savagery" as justification for their subjugation).

Put simply, if he wanted peace and friendship, it certainly isn't with those he considers beneath him. Else he would've done more to find a way to achieve the Ascians goals without the massive chronic loss of life the Calamities entail. Enthralled to Zodiark or otherwise.

[JeanneOrnitier]

I really have to wonder why he founded the garlean empire and run it for so long when he wanted peace and friendship after all

He wants peace and friendship in Amaurot. He made it clear he doesn't consider the people around now to be truly alive and as unworthy successors.

[ShadowMeowth]

To be honest, and in Emet's defense, using the Garlean "savage" / "beastmen" argument about their prejudices is rather hypocritical because the Eorzean city-states are not much better. Even in Doma and Hingashi they coexist peacefully with the Lupin, and having seen the First where the alleged "beast tribes" are considered the same as what in the Source are called the "spoken races", blaming Garlemald alone for that is pointless.

About why would Emet build something to fall into chaos later, well. In Rak'tika he gives us an explanation: "we may sow the seeds of chaos, but it is man who tends them". I cannot say about the others, but Emet at least has been observing mankind and mingling with them to see if, as he himself says, judging men's potential for reaching Amaurot's heights. I would say the purpose is some sort of trial: building a great nation, and see what happens. If the people end up screwing up, then mission failed, Calamity time. From their point of view, with each Calamity, mankind becomes closer to what the Ancients were by virtue of the Rejoining. Aye, that entails massive loss of life, but it is not exactly they are not aware of it; at least Emet is, hence his search for "a path of lesser tragedy". To be honest, I believe Emet and probably other Ascians got to the point they had to adopt some sort of mantra / mindset for all the destruction they believed they had to cause. Something like "for those we have lost, for those we can yet save" in the WoL/D's case. In their case, convincing themselves the sundered are not entirely alive. It is a coping mechanism.

[Enkidoh]

He wants peace and friendship in Amaurot. He made it clear he doesn't consider the people around now to be truly alive and as unworthy successors.

^This. For all Emet's cultural posturing he was simply using the Archons and the WoL/D as tools in his greater scheme to restart the 8th Rejoining, he didn't want "peace and friendship" with them at all (hence his glee about the WoL turning into a sineater - he knew if that happened it would kill two birds with one stone - not only wipe out those pesky Archons, and cause destablization in both the First and the Source enough to put the 8th Calamity back on track as well, it was win-win to him!

Through everything he didn't consider anyone other than himself "truly alive" and thus a worthy successor to the Ancients and his legacy, it was only his defeat (thanks to Ardbert's deus ex machina) that we finally convinced him when we brought him down.

But until that very moment, he was completely indifferent to everyone not an Ancient/Ascian - billions of lives lost was nothing to him, as he didn't consider them truly 'alive', and the countries he founded like Garlemald were just tools to be used and discarded, which he did. Only in his final moment, after having an Axe of Light punch a hole clean through him even as he was unleashing his dark burden at full power.... did he finally accept them as worthy of existence, which is why he allowed himself to fade away - he no longer had to shoulder his people's burden and legacy any longer, it was up to the Wol/D to "remember them".

[Veloran]

I think that's a mistaken viewpoint. His talk of you "not truly being alive" was, to me, posturing more than anything, something that he wanted and needed to believe, even as he simultaneously wanted to be proven wrong. Remember, he had loved and had friendships with mortals in the past, was very taken with the arts, grieved badly when his first son as Solus had died, and I think it's even implied he tried to make Zenos Ancient-like so he wouldn't lose him as well (which was an unmitigated failure). At the same time, from a certain perspective, all the lives spent trying to ressurect the Ancients was worthwhile - Mortals are, of course, mortal. Every person his actions killed would ultimately only have lived for a maximum of a hundred or so years anyway. Returning people to their rejoined selves would save potentially infinite lives from natural death, to say nothing of how prone mortals are to killing each other. And even with all that, he still WANTED to be proven wrong and for mortals to prove themselves.

[ShadowMeowth]

^^^
This, exactly. It is hard to understand the Unsundered, not to mention Emet because of his antics, because their point of view, their experiences, are extremely different to what mortals can even fathom. Only after the whole Amaurot shabang the WoL/D and the Scions begin to understand their plight, and when Elidibus comes to play, then it is they who try finding common ground with him (which sadly is impossible because of Elidibus' very nature, as a primal he has a duty and he is going to stick to it) instead of the other way around. Because lest we forget, and Y'shtola kindly reminds us just before going to Eulmore for the specters of Light's assault, it was Emet-Selch who first tried to find common ground with the Scions. I am replaying again 5.0 with another of my alts and considering in how high esteem the Scions came to beheld Emet (Y'shtola and Alphinaud openly appreciate his attempts to cooperation, Urianger mentioning that their parting in the Ocular would only be complete with the Exarch and Emet-Selch "smirking in the wings") it is easy to forget that at first, their behavior towards Emet was hostile at best. That is, until he steps up to rescue Y'shtola and then after the Ravel's revelations, which of course piqued their interest. Amaurot is a major turning point for everyone, in-game and for players in general, and even if they went there to save G'raha and stop Emet, the Scions then make the effort to reason with Emet. At that point it was pointless, Emet was still reeling from having his hopes yet again dashed by the WoL/D's failure to contain Innocence's Light, and he was in great denial. Again, a coping mechanism for what he believed he had to do. He sees Azem in us after Ardbert merges with us and his emotions get the best of him for a moment, and he forces himself to dismiss it as "a trick of the light". It goes well with Emet's love for theatre, and more specifically, probably the oldest of its forms: Ancient Greek theatre, where all the players wore masks to interpret their character. Emet hides beneath the mask of Hythlodaeus' antics, he hides beneath a mask of indolence, beneath the masks of all the lives and names he has lived, because it makes it easier for him to do what he believes needs to be done. Even the Emet-Selch title is a mask that he removes before battling us as equals, and in 5.3 it is evident he has cast away all of these masks, except the traditional white Amaurotine mask: he is no longer Emet-Selch of the Convocation of Fourteen, but simply Hades, Lord of the Underworld.

Curiously, Emet's disappointment with mankind can be described with the final verses of Dragonsong:

Children of the land, answer this;
Why must you turn to empty bliss?
Tell me why break trust, why turn the past to dust
Seeking solace in the abyss?
Tell me why create a circle none can break?
Why must you let go, the life you were bestowed?
This I fear I'll never know

[Kesey]

Which begs the question: what will be the stance of these Ascians? It would be too easy to brand them as the same ilk as Fandaniel and assume we will have to fight them all. But the main lesson in Shadowbringers is one of bridging the differences and bring the stars together. I have little doubt that maybe one or two will support Fandaniel’s approach, but as we are now the heirs of the Convocation’s will and the closest to the Unsundered, perhaps others will rally to our side if they believe in their duty of ages past.

At this juncture, I assume they are being held in the wings for future story lines. Even though we are approaching the end of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story they could become potential wildcards as the story continues because what is an Ascian if Zodiark ceases to be?