Summoner: An action or a dot?

[MirronTulaxia]

Its cause ive played most of them games that i know is bull.
Summoner on ff3, summons had a white attack a black attack and an ultimate attack, had 3 jobs the evoker, the summoner and sage with sage being able to do every spell in the game including summoning
Summoner ff4 , Ridia had Bio and other black magic
Summoner ff5 , summoner had the ability to summmon a random summon at no cost, with the magic system giving you one spot to slot another jobs spell
Summoner ff6 , Every summon gave you magic to use and upped your skills
Summoner ff7, A summon is just a materia and does nothing more
Summoner ff8, Summons give you magic and abilities that boost your stats
Summoner ff10 , Yuna the high summoner was using healing spells and protection spells
Summoner ff13 , The summons attack with you for a period of time before performing a big attack

We go to ff14 and you people make it sound like its the first time a summoner was doing more than just put a summon out. Ill tell you what ff14 summoner is, its the job finally getting what it deserves , a magic system where it can be a standalone job that explains it can do more than just summon , hate it all you like but it is a summoner in every sense of the word. It summons stuff if you want to know why summoner is able to do more than just summons go read the lore, if you cant handle dots play another job.

The big thing you're missing is that in all of those they were different categories of magic. Summoning Magic is just Summoning. That characters are hybrids doesn't mean that the concept of Summoner is, which is true in games where you get actual jobs and not characters.

I'm... not even sure what point you're trying to make with VII/VIII/VI, none of those are actual Summoners. Same goes for XIII.

[HeulGDarian]

The big thing you're missing is that in all of those they were different categories of magic. Summoning Magic is just Summoning. That characters are hybrids doesn't mean that the concept of Summoner is, which is true in games where you get actual jobs and not characters.

I'm... not even sure what point you're trying to make with VII/VIII/VI, none of those are actual Summoners. Same goes for XIII.

Yes ofc too hell with all the other summon systems, lets just pick and choose the ones we like. And from all these titles i said you know in how many summoner is a solo job? 1 ff5, you can make the arguement of ff3 as well but summoner gets upgraded to sage gaining once again black and white magic. This summoner isnt just a summoner either, SE went ahead and created a magic system in which summoning can fit without having to be a blm that being the arcanima magic system. It may not be your cup of tea but it is for many more others. Arcanima gave summoner the out he needed in order to be a standalone job, a magic system unique to him and only him. One that doesnt play in the fanciness aspect of summoner but instead the options aspect.

[MirronTulaxia]

Yes ofc too hell with all the other summon systems, lets just pick and choose the ones we like. And from all these titles i said you know in how many summoner is a solo job? 1 ff5, you can make the arguement of ff3 as well but summoner gets upgraded to sage gaining once again black and white magic. This summoner isnt just a summoner either, SE went ahead and created a magic system in which summoning can fit without having to be a blm that being the arcanima magic system. It may not be your cup of tea but it is for many more others. Arcanima gave summoner the out he needed in order to be a standalone job, a magic system unique to him and only him. One that doesnt play in the fanciness aspect of summoner but instead the options aspect.

Er... Summoner is in a whole heck of a lot as a solo job other than III and V. XI, Tactics line, others as well. And the point is that there is still a clear delineation between Summoning Magic and anything else a Hybrid character uses. It's like using Rosa as an argument for White Mages being spliced with Rangers.

And my point has never been about how much fun it is or is not, it's that it isn't a proper Summoner. Trying to appeal to me with weak pathos rhetoric like that will get you nowhere.

[HeulGDarian]

Er... Summoner is in a whole heck of a lot as a solo job other than III and V. XI, Tactics line, others as well. And the point is that there is still a clear delineation between Summoning Magic and anything else a Hybrid character uses. It's like using Rosa as an argument for White Mages being spliced with Rangers.

And my point has never been about how much fun it is or is not, it's that it isn't a proper Summoner. Trying to appeal to me with weak pathos rhetoric like that will get you nowhere.

You think that im trying to appeal to you? im trying to correct the misinformation of what is and isnt a summoner. You cant pick what matches your point of view and then discard the rest, and this is what you are doing , especially when out of all the game a total of 3 from the main series , arguably 2 had a pure summoner , 1 of which had a system akin to current egi system, and from non main series we have a total of 4 , arguably 2 since 3 of them are an actual series, unlike the main ones which each is distinct between them.

[MirronTulaxia]

You think that im trying to appeal to you? im trying to correct the misinformation of what is and isnt a summoner. You cant pick what matches your point of view and then discard the rest, and this is what you are doing , especially when out of all the game a total of 3 from the main series , arguably 2 had a pure summoner , 1 of which had a system akin to current egi system, and from non main series we have a total of 4 , arguably 2 since 3 of them are an actual series, unlike the main ones which each is distinct between them.

The point isn't whether any particular character was a pure job. The point was "can we look at these jobs and say what they actually are". And... you can. You can look at III. You can look at IV. You can look at V and so on and so forth all the way to Dimensions and get a clear idea of what a Summoner is. Whether or not any individual character was a "pure" Summoner is moot, a lot of times characters aren't purely one job in games like that. Are we to look at Rosa and say "well all White Mages should be Rangers"? Are we to look at Kimahri and say "well all Dragoons should be Blue Mages"? No, because that's a ridiculous stance. And ultimately that's what you're putting forward. We don't have any pure "White Mage" characters, yet here in XIV we could manage that. They could have done the same with Summoner.

And you're distorting information and acting like it's meaningful. I'm not misrepresenting information nor am I lying, which is what misinformation would be in this case. I can back up my case with every single game. They make it abundantly clear what falls where.

[HeulGDarian]

The point isn't whether any particular character was a pure job. The point was "can we look at these jobs and say what they actually are". And... you can. You can look at III. You can look at IV. You can look at V and so on and so forth all the way to Dimensions and get a clear idea of what a Summoner is. Whether or not any individual character was a "pure" Summoner is moot, a lot of times characters aren't purely one job in games like that. Are we to look at Rosa and say "well all White Mages should be Rangers"? Are we to look at Kimahri and say "well all Dragoons should be Blue Mages"? No, because that's a ridiculous stance. And ultimately that's what you're putting forward. We don't have any pure "White Mage" characters, yet here in XIV we could manage that. They could have done the same with Summoner.

And you're distorting information and acting like it's meaningful. I'm not misrepresenting information nor am I lying, which is what misinformation would be in this case. I can back up my case with every single game. They make it abundantly clear what falls where.

Im not distorting it, i take all the things you discarded as meaningless , cause they didnt fit your point of view and tell you they do mean something.
When they introduce yuna as the grand summoner, ready to do her pilgrimage , do you think they also put small letters below her name saying "but she can also use white magic"? ,
Do you think Rydia someone from the pure blood summoner families , shouldnt be called such cause she knows black magic as well? ,
What about eiko with her summoner horn, you know the thing literally needed to talk to summons in that universe, should we also put some small letters on it saying "actually whm".
These are all characters that according to you are moot, and shouldnt be taken into account. In almost every game there is a summoning system ,some are more different than the other like in the case of ff8 and ff13, but even then you cant just say they are moot just cause there isnt a job there called summoner.
ill say it again , what they did in ff14 is simple , instead of giving it a sub system of black magic , or white magic they instead gave summoner its own rules of summoning , that he could apply to do more than summon.
You think that its something as irrational as saying blue mages should be dragoons. it isnt because we re not talking about something as farfetched as a melee fighter and a spell caster, we re talking about 2 mages who in many iterations have shared space and now they split them apart, should bio have gone to the blm since it was categorised as black magic? NO cause it doesnt suit him, it fits perfectly a job like summoner cause unlike black magic , summoning takes time to do in this game. Summoning something that most ff games have it reduced on a cast time is now an active thing.

[MirronTulaxia]

Im not distorting it, i take all the things you discarded as meaningless , cause they didnt fit your point of view and tell you they do mean something.
When they introduce yuna as the grand summoner, ready to do her pilgrimage , do you think they also put small letters below her name saying "but she can also use white magic"? ,
Do you think Rydia someone from the pure blood summoner families , shouldnt be called such cause she knows black magic as well? ,
What about eiko with her summoner horn, you know the thing literally needed to talk to summons in that universe, should we also put some small letters on it saying "actually whm".
These are all characters that according to you are moot, and shouldnt be taken into account. In almost every game there is a summoning system ,some are more different than the other like in the case of ff8 and ff13, but even then you cant just say they are moot just cause there isnt a job there called summoner.
ill say it again , what they did in ff14 is simple , instead of giving it a sub system of black magic , or white magic they instead gave summoner its own rules of summoning , that he could apply to do more than summon.
You think that its something as irrational as saying blue mages should be dragoons. it isnt because we re not talking about something as farfetched as a melee fighter and a spell caster, we re talking about 2 mages who in many iterations have shared space and now they split them apart, should bio have gone to the blm since it was categorised as black magic? NO cause it doesnt suit him, it fits perfectly a job like summoner cause unlike black magic , summoning takes time to do in this game. Summoning something that most ff games have it reduced on a cast time is now an active thing.

They are all characters that are not just one job, yes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. But let's shift this a bit.

Your argument is basically that, because no character is ever a pure Summoner, there shouldn't be a pure Summoner job in XIV. Yes or no?

Ah what a delicious can of worms this has become.

Also I think the point your missing is that Summoning in general changes from game to game there is no end all beat all regarding what is right or wrong. The point is calling forth monsters (of eld) to fight for you. it in the similar fashion to how technically Pictomancer is a spoof on Beast Tamer, or how SCH and RDM are two sides of the same coin when you think about it. Each job just has a "defining" trait, that sets it apart from the rest, and for SMN that's summoning.

My point has never been "we shouldn't have Egis", so you're misunderstanding the point. The point is they should have Summons and only that. I can point at that throughout the series and it's true.

[Eloah]

Stuff

Ah what a delicious can of worms this has become.

Also I think the point your missing is that Summoning in general changes from game to game there is no end all beat all regarding what is right or wrong. The point is calling forth monsters (of eld) to fight for you. it in the similar fashion to how technically Pictomancer is a spoof on Beast Tamer, or how SCH and RDM are two sides of the same coin when you think about it. Each job just has a "defining" trait, that sets it apart from the rest, and for SMN that's summoning.