The State of the Ascians (Assume Spoilers as of TODAY)

[Yuella]

Did the ancients have genders? It's possible that they move between male and female bodies

[Cilia]

Did the ancients have genders? It's possible that they move between male and female bodies

Considering Hythlodaeus' dialogue differs depending on your PC's gender... yes, probably.

[SonaEtwahl]

I wonder if Fandaniel might attempt to reintegrate all of his shards and make himself an Unsundered Overlord. Presumably, Elidibus was keeping the Ascians in check and preventing this sort of abuse of power. While we kind of have to take Elidibus at his word that only the Unsundered can raise an Ascian up to their former title and power, that says nothing about consolidating all of your alternate selves into one.

Interestingly, I also wonder if Nabriales and Igeyorhm are truly gone. While they may have been eradicated using the same method that annihilated the Unsundered trio, their shard counterparts are presumably still around. Does the absolute destruction of a Sundered Ascian preclude their rebirth via a new shard copy? The Scions seem to believe that to be the case, although I'm not entirely sure why. Unless raising an Ascian up to office requires imparting them with the aether of the previous title-holder, and not having that aether present prevents the replacement from working, there doesn't seem to be any reason why Nabriales and Igeyorhm (and Mitron and Loghrif etc.) couldn't have been raised up again by Elidibus prior to 5.3. It makes very little sense for him to allow the Ascian numbers to dwindle so low.

[Enkidoh]

Did the ancients have genders? It's possible that they move between male and female bodies

The Ancients definetely had actual gender - besides numerous Ascians specifically identifiying as female, there is also Venat who was an Ancient stated as being a woman who, of course, never became an Ascian (as she led Hydaelyn's summoning and became her core).

To say nothing of the Amuarotine shades stating the Ancients bore children normally (the player character and the Archons were constantly being called 'children' and being told "to return to your studies and one day you too shall be an exemplery citizen of Amaurot!", and that how even newborn babies had the power of Creation magic), although it was unclear if any of the shades in Emet's reconstruction of Amaurot were stated as being male or female, given the above info it's pretty clear that they identified as one or the other.

[Iscah]

I wonder if Fandaniel might attempt to reintegrate all of his shards and make himself an Unsundered Overlord.

That would be an interesting twist given past conversations where people seem convinced we're going to be gathering up the rest of our soul-shards for some reason... which we shouldn't for ethical reasons, never mind the logistics, but Fandaniel may not have an issue with either of those things.

And the writers have already turned the "what if the WoL is a primal" thing on its head, so.

Then again it's probably not all that engaging for him to be popping off to random shards and coming back slightly more complete, but you could go the route of him targeting specific people we know on the Source and First in the process. Possibly even our small pool of survivors from the Thirteenth.

Of course there's an important question here: how easy is it to track down soul shards in the first place? Can anyone "find themselves" if they concentrate hard enough or did it need Emet's particular skill to identify them?

[feyii]

Of course there's an important question here: how easy is it to track down soul shards in the first place? Can anyone "find themselves" if they concentrate hard enough or did it need Emet's particular skill to identify them?

You know, since we learned about the soul colours and some people being able to see them in 5.0 I'm always reminded of the Dotharl and how the Khan - currently Sadu - is presumably able to tell whose soul a newborn has. So I would assume even to this day, some people (Sadu, Seto) still have the ability. It might not be as potent as Emet's or Hyth's but it is there and probably still as rare as it was in the days of the ancients.

[LineageRazor]

Unless raising an Ascian up to office requires imparting them with the aether of the previous title-holder, and not having that aether present prevents the replacement from working, there doesn't seem to be any reason why Nabriales and Igeyorhm (and Mitron and Loghrif etc.) couldn't have been raised up again by Elidibus prior to 5.3. It makes very little sense for him to allow the Ascian numbers to dwindle so low.

We don't know what the process is for raising up an Ascian. It may not be as simple as grabbing the poor shmuck by the neck and going - BAM! You're an Ascian now! Bwahahahaha! It could be a process that takes literally years to do. Or it may take a tremendous amount of energy, the expending of which would leave Elidibus unable to execute other duties for a while (such as the very pressing duty of slaying the WoL).

If it is a simple, uncostly process - maybe he HAS raised them, and they're otherwise occupied, just as the other "unaccounted" Ascians seem to be.

[KageTokage]

I feel like they're probably going to use Fandaniel to explain how the whole Ascian creation process worked because he didn't seem terribly pleased by the arrangement and was waiting for a chance to be able to do his own thing (Assuming he's not just bluffing and still fully intends to carry out Zodiark's will somehow).

[Midareyukki]

It's stated in 5.0 that time flows differently between the different shards, including the Source itself. They explain also that the time discrepancy isn't regular either, that sometimes time flows closely to the flow of time in the Source, and sometimes timeframes don't align at all. It's how it's been years between the Scion's calling into Norvrandt by the Exarch, which we experience as weeks, days and even hours apart, as well as how the time between Minfilia's journey to stop the Flood and the beginning of Shadowbringers looks like one year to us, but a hundred to the people of Norvrandt.

So perhaps, the destruction of Ascians such as Mitron and Loghrif at the hands of Ardbert and their appearance in the 2.0 quests indicate different times. In 2.0-2.3, those two were working together to bring about the Flood of Light. There, they meet with the others and report their progress, hence the cutscenes. But then, sometime after that until late Heavensward, Ardbert's party kills them and accidentally trigger the flood. This, in turn, allows Elidibus to approach them and turn them into the Warriors of Darkness, bringing them to the Source where time, at least from their perspective, flows much faster.

As for Emmerololth... Either they did screw up their count and retconned in something they shouldn't have and it got confusing, or they noticed it and fixed it by saying "Oh we just go around and replace our numbers if they ever die". Which can potentially bring a return of a new Nabriales and a new Igeyorhm. This one I can sort of excuse it since they do have a convenient way to bring them back whenever necessary. But wasn't one of Emet's early lines in Shadowbringers to point out how he was hibernating since Solus "died" and only woke up when Lahabrea screwed up their plans and exposed them? That would imply he was fast asleep during the time those cutscenes happen, regardless of "timeframe" since we're talking about Eorzean Time. And he's an Unsundered, so he isn't replaceable. Meaning there shouldn't be any real way for him to be there unless he woke up to attend a meeting and then go back to sleep.


...frankly I wouldn't put it past someone like Emet to wake up from a decade-long nap, hear out a report, and then resume sleeping, but I don't think he says anything about having his sleep be interrupted by anything other than Lahabrea being a loudmouth.

[ShadowMeowth]

Welp. I have a lot of thoughts about the state of the Ascians, and what will be their future now that the Unsundered are out of the picture: Lahabrea eaten by King Thordan, Elidibus inside the Crystal Tower of the First, and Emet-Selch napping in the Lifestream. Yet I believe Fandaniel showing up and stating his stance on the whole will-of-the-Convocation might entail something more complex and interesting than simply "there are yet some sundered Ascians we will have to duke it out with". Allow me to explain.

Starting from 5.0, there was a purpose in Emet-Selch’s approach to the WoL/D and the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. He sincerely wanted to try forging a constructive alliance and, if anything, that they would know the true history of the world. This is faithful to his character and his in-advance-planning. He went as far to leave the Convocation crystals behind for Hythlodaeus’ shade to give them to us, Azem’s crystal included, and when we later awaken it, Emet’s recording grants us our missing seat again, in a way that is quite similar to how it was done back in the days of the unsundered star, see Elidibus' memory of Lahabrea granting him his seat. In that moment, we, a sundered soul, rose to the vacant office once again. Of course, I doubt Fandaniel is even aware of this, because apparently no one except Emet remembered the Fourteenth seat. He reacts in glee and elation at the possibility that all the Unsundered are gone, for it would mean they are free to do as they please and not chained to their duty of eons past.

And it might well had been the case, if not because the WoL/D has returned from the First being 9/14 Ancient (which is more than the sundered Ascians are even if they were 8/14) and carrying the legacy of the Unsundered. Threescore.

(Gah, character limit. I will elaborate further in the next post.)