Does Square intend to address Market botting?

[Kes13a]

Finally, I have a new suggestion. I'm not sure SE JPN is aware of the issue on SE USA and SE Europe servers. My suggestion is to have a letter undersigned by as many players as possible and to have this letter translated and submitted to SE JPN support and posted on JPN forums read by the devs. The letter would highlight that botting is a major problem in SE USA and SE Europe servers, and we would ask them to intercede directly. This suggestion would get the developers involved directly if they aren't aware of the prevalence of the problem on SE USA and Europe servers--which I believe is the case. As I said in a previous post, I suspect that botting isn't as serious a concern on SE JPN servers due to cultural differences. It's entirely possible that poor communication is making the problem worse on SE USA/Europe servers.

2/2

I had made a slight reference to this before. I had heard that there was an issue reported for a while and was going unresolved until Yoshi or another dev logged in one day and saw it. If the JPN servers dont have bots at this level or number, they will NEVER see it as an issue. But again, I feel thats still an SE NA or Euro problem because the GM's and people here SHOULD be passing that along.

[TheLoveJenovan]

But again, I feel thats still an SE NA or Euro problem because the GM's and people here SHOULD be passing that along.

Thanks Kes13a. I agree. I think SE NA/Euro are subordinate to the headquarters (SE JPN). If we notify SE JPN that SE USA/Europe are part of the problem, they may be motivated to change management at those subsidiaries--or at least they may want to devote more resources. AFAICT, the SE USA/Euro support divisions (incl GMs) are either seriously understaffed or poorly managed.

That said, I'm not entirely sure SE JPN would care, at the end of the day. I've reported bots through the Cheating form in the game, without impact. After I contacted support directly, they told me to submit it to the Special Task Force, which I believe is based in Japan. (This is a support system separate from the game.) Even with this "Special Task Force" submission, It's been 3 weeks without a change with the bots on my server--or my former server, now that my sub has lapsed. The bot accounts are still active there though, according to friends on discord.

If others are still on board with writing a letter, I suggest adding a sentence on reasonable timelines for acting on bots. In my opinion, 1 week is more than enough. I'm an academic who sometimes has to process 6-9 cases of cheating in 1 semester. I can do the research and write the 60-90 page report (per student) within a week. There are far fewer movings parts in a botting investigation like this, and the devs have intimate access to data on how their product is being used--or misused. This boils down to a management problem at SE USA/Europe and, possibly, SE JPN.

[Sqwall]

I'm in DATA/ANALYTICS and it's not hard to connect the dot's here.

It's not hard really to understand where your items come from. I always check the signature on an item....if it even LOOKS suspicious it's a bot. i.e. I have seen "Signature Notfound" "Obtaining Signature" .....really? that's the name you came up with when you "started" the game. I will now start reporting suspicious names, and if the data proves unsubstantiated then I suppose I was wrong, but if I was right...well. As for me I usually get in bidding wars with player characters with "suspicious names" more often then not, and the amount of gil is important to me as I spent real time, energy, gil, and crafting mats to get everything together.

When I post something I usually place it above the lowest kind of in the middle, but to check back 8 hours later to see, the market has imploded and undercut to smithereens. This isn't normal behavior for players that put in the time and GIL to turn a profit to destroy there own market. This is the WORST haggling tactics ever scene where the seller pays the buyer to take it off their hands.

Come on this isn't hard to report this crap. From a data mining standpoint it's even EASIER to investigate the item time stamps, trades, gil transfers, mail logs. A simple excel spread sheet can figure this out, and I consider medium level excel proficiency can find the data we need. I would go out on a limb here and say the TOP 10 earners on any server....5 of those are bots if you compare the names, and amount of time playing.

Just look at one player with that kind of name...and start sifting through the timestamps. If they aren't paying for trades of RARE materials from one player to another....hmmm suspicious. If the player account doesn't move for DAYS on end from the summoning bell... hmmmm. If the summoning bell click/execute is used EXCESSIVE times per hour. Multiple alt's...with 5 retainers EACH...every retainer packed to the gills with items, and the player character constantly logging in and out.

All of this is unnatural behavior for even a PRO gathering/crafting person, and if you deny this your probably promoting bot accounts.

[TheLoveJenovan]

Thanks Sqwall for the post. I agree with most of your post, but I have a few comments:

i.e. I have seen "Signature Notfound" "Obtaining Signature" .....really? that's the name you came up with when you "started" the game.

I was puzzled by this as well. I did a search and found that this isn't the name of a player, but rather it's the value pulled for a user ID that hasn't logged since a patch was applied. I'm not exactly sure why the server doesn't just pull the character's name directly from the database, regardless of their last login, but that does appear to be the case. For example, you'll notice many items crafted by "Obtaining Signature" after a patch. If you submit cheating reports for an account with this name, I'm not sure support will do anything.

I will now start reporting suspicious names, and if the data proves unsubstantiated then I suppose I was wrong, but if I was right...well.

Reporting is great--assuming that SE does something with the case, which is up for debate--but decreasing the signal-to-noise ratio of reports by increasing the noise would be problematic if it encumbers or diverts resources from investigating legitimate bots. You may be correct in all of your reports, but if you're not, then it's wasted resources that could be used in investigating real bots.

I agree that players don't always act in their own interest, but I would argue that some of the behavior you describe can happen from legitimate players.

- I'm not sure what you mean by suspicious names, other than the "Obtaining Signature." The bots I've encountered have all had "legitimate" sounding names. I've also interacted with players with illegitimate names.

- In my experience, I've witnessed market crashes more from legitimate players than bots. There are legitimate reasons a player might want to sell items below the cost of mats--for example, they may not be buying the mats.

- In reading through the thread, it's clear that everyone here has reported these bots multiple times. This thread is in response to SE USA/Europe's inaction to these reports.

- I agree that this should be exceedingly easy from SE's perspective to address, but here we are.

[TheLoveJenovan]

I guess there's a debate as to how we've "detected" bots. There are different bots that use different mechanisms. For moderators and readers, this is the process I use:

Market bots
1. Frequent price cutting. Crafted items from a specific user will consistently undercut the lowest price by 1 gil within 10-30 minutes. (There are sometimes exceptions when another player buys one of these items at a low price and tries to flip it at a high price.)

2. Price Flooring. The bot will undercut an item by 1 gil every 10-30 minutes until a price floor is reached, in which case they will completely stop. For example, you might post something at 26,000 gil and take turns undercutting every 10-30 minutes with a bot to 25,589 gil, but then the bot won't undercut you by another gil. At the same time, the bot will still undercut on other items.

3. Perpetual log in. The account is logged in 24/7.

4. Engagement. The user only has DOH jobs leveled, the DOL jobs leveled or both, and the user may have one DOM/DOW job leveled to 70. Over months, no DOW/DOM progress is made, and the user never leaves a location with a Summoning Bell--like the apartments. The level 70 DOM/DOW job is consistent with an allowed paid progression, which I believe was done to get access to endgame zones.

5. Free Company. The user doesn't belong to a "real" Free Company. The makeup of these Free Companies varies, but frequently they'll have a few other accounts with a job at lvl 18-25. I'm not exactly sure why this is the case--perhaps it's to circumvent an existing anti-cheating system, these players partially help launder money by conducting RMT, these players offer additional retainers or some combination of the three.

(The market bots I've found check all of these boxes, yet I'm sure there are bots that only check some of these boxes)

DOL Bots
1. Perpetual login

2. Deterministic behavior. These players will run a circuit 24/7 and their behavior is 100% consistent as they go between nodes.

3. Ephemeral nodes. These players frequently mine/harvest ephemeral nodes, I believe for selling crystals. It doesn't help that ephemeral nodes always spawn in the exact same location, as opposed to other nodes.

I mean, finding these bots shouldn't be that hard. SE would just need to filter their logs for players logged in for 24/7 periods without going AFK.

[TheLoveJenovan]

I think the elephant in the room, ultimately, is that SE probably stands to lose money if they really crack down on bots. On one hand, bots probably pay more than regular accounts. They pay for a normal subscription, they often have multiple retainers, and they may support additional alternate accounts for laundering gil. From what I've seen, they also pay for job level boosters.

At the same time, you have a player base willing to put up with the problem. (Other than this thread, obviously)

If you ban 100 bots to avoid losing 1000 legitimate accounts, then you make more money. If you ban 100 bots to avoid losing 10 legitimate accounts, then you've lost money. I suspect that the latter scenario better describes the situation.

[Kes13a]

5. Free Company. The user doesn't belong to a "real" Free Company. The makeup of these Free Companies varies, but frequently they'll have a few other accounts with a job at lvl 18-25. I'm not exactly sure why this is the case--perhaps it's to circumvent an existing anti-cheating system, these players partially help launder money by conducting RMT, these players offer additional retainers or some combination of the three.

An addition to this is, an FC with the main crafter as the leader, and a whole herd of members who strangely... only make it to level 30 or so, which is about the level you get retainer access. These "members" are typically the summoning bell clingers with a rotation to update prices, the crafter is usually afk, and logged in 24/7

The thing I dont get is, that was stupidly easy for me to determine with Lodestone and some observation. Why exactly can SE do nothing, or apparently even FIND these cheaters?

[MilitaryVet123]

I think the elephant in the room, ultimately, is that SE probably stands to lose money if they really crack down on bots. On one hand, bots probably pay more than regular accounts. They pay for a normal subscription, they often have multiple retainers, and they may support additional alternate accounts for laundering gil. From what I've seen, they also pay for job level boosters.

At the same time, you have a player base willing to put up with the problem. (Other than this thread, obviously)

If you ban 100 bots to avoid losing 1000 legitimate accounts, then you make more money. If you ban 100 bots to avoid losing 10 legitimate accounts, then you've lost money. I suspect that the latter scenario better describes the situation.

Not true. Vast majority of people don't use bots. The cost doesn't come from slashing the income from bots. The cost comes from dedicating resources and manpower which are often expensive, to solve this problem.

[Kes13a]

Not true. Vast majority of people don't use bots. The cost doesn't come from slashing the income from bots. The cost comes from dedicating resources and manpower which are often expensive, to solve this problem.

But there is also the hidden business cost long term.

"Yeah, FF 14 was good, great story, but too many bots... I wouldnt recommend playing until they do something about it"

Is that really how they want their word of mouth to go?

[TheLoveJenovan]

Thanks MilitaryVet123 and Kes13a for your responses.

Not true. Vast majority of people don't use bots. The cost doesn't come from slashing the income from bots. The cost comes from dedicating resources and manpower which are often expensive, to solve this problem.

That's true. Both aspects--the cost of losing bot account subscriptions and the cost of staff--contribute to the problem. That's why I made the number of bots banned (100) the same in both examples, as this normalizes the staff/infrastructure cost from botting. At the end of the day, the ROI in investing in the problem is low, as evidenced by the prevalence of the problem. The cost is the loss of bot subscriptions and the staff to police botting, while the return are the retention of otherwise lost accounts from the problem. The point remains the same: SE probably doesn't stand to lose enough accounts by taking a serious approach to the problem.

For example, the recent ban wave terminated 7 bots and suspended 25 bots, which would include the pervasive market bots discussed in this thread. By my count, there are 32 JPN servers, 24 NA servers and 12 Eur servers--68 servers in total. That means they banned 0.1 bots per server-week and suspended 0.36 bots per server-week. On Jenova, there are at least 2-3 market bots, so I can expect them to be banned after 20-30 weeks (4.5-7 months).

The irony is that there is no shortage of cheap staff to help solve the problem. I'm sure you could have at least a few players on each server that would be willing and competent enough to identify bots and write up reports in exchange for their subscription cost. To avoid conflicts of interest, these players could help police servers on different data centers.

But there is also the hidden business cost long term.

"Yeah, FF 14 was good, great story, but too many bots... I wouldnt recommend playing until they do something about it"

Is that really how they want their word of mouth to go?

I hope this problem damages FF14's reputation, but it looks like it's a problem that has persisted for a long time. See this thread for example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._in_this_game/

I wish I would have known that before starting to play the game. I think that continuing to make noise can only help the problem.