why are people so resistant to constructive criticism about the game?

[Gula]

SE has enabled them. They have regularly banned players for "constructive criticism", and I mean that literally. Not someone saying it with an insult attached, "hey idiot do this.." So those "toxic casuals" assume their way is the right way, and if you dare say anything it's an immediate report to the GMs much of the time.

Rules will always be easy to abuse. Its not that SE is enabling anything, just that mods are efficient with dealing what is handed to them. They could be changed, and redone. But pettiness will always find a way.

[Infindox]

I don't consider a lot of what some people discuss as "constructive criticism" on places like Reddit, more like "have a fit and if someone disagrees pile on them". There are things in this game I don't get and I'll gladly address my concerns.

[Shougun]

If you dont like the forums, maybe you should go to another place.



Ok terrible jokes aside, the issue I tend to see when this gets brought up is core aspects vs optimization aspects.

A basic way to say this is if someone came in and said "You know what, the game should be an FPS cause FPS are better than MMOs." That literally is a core aspect of FFXIV gameplay and style - to be a quest driven MMO and not an FPS. The suggestion doesnt fit and isnt 'constructive' in any way. At that point, the only answer really is "Maybe playing something else is better for you."

This doesnt mean that there arent aspects from other games that wouldnt work or improve FFXIV.

For example, the transmog format of WoW I think is broadly superior to how the glamour dresser here works and what I think would be cool is once you acquire a piece of gear, it gets added to a listing you can access at any time. This is an optimization aspect where you take an element from another similar game and apply aspects of it to this one to improve it's format without undermining its core purpose or intent. In this case specifically, it's making glamour more accessible so you can better customize your character without having to worry about inventory space.

Where people get hung up and stumble is when they make suggestions that are counter to a core aspect of the game. A specific example of this is WoW vs FFXIV in terms of MSQ and story. FFXIV is first and foremost a 'final fantasy' title and will be heavily story and narrative driven. The game is, as a result, designed around MSQ. This isnt like WoW, where youre more a spectator in events that unfold. Whether you directly participate or not, the story will progress without you. In FFXIV, you are the hero, in WoW you are a hero. This leads to differences in how the game is set up and gameplay aspects and of course it comes with pros and cons to each format. Those format differences may not be your speed, and maybe another MMO might be more suited for you in that regards. In this case, suggesting that we should scrap a core aspect of what is key to FFXIV in favor of making it more like WoW is gonna receive push back.

Lol, you had me so hard. So evil just like all lalafe--- . (+1 xD)

Also I agree. If you're suggesting FFXIV should be a real time strategy game just like Starcraft 2... well thal's spherical halls you just want 100% different game lol.

Although I would argue that I think some people think they're defending a core aspect when they're not, so I still think if the purpose is constructive conversations, on both side, then "go somewhere else" should be worded exceptionally carefully or not at all.

Now if don't care to be constructive, and think "they suck so I'm going to suck too" well shoot go for it lol. But I don't give out applause for being rude because someone else was non-optimally communicating. Of course I've done that, but I wouldn't applause myself in such a situation (not saying I can't be immature, but I don't think it's a quality trait).

So like lets carry on your last point, and lets test if we're seeing eye to eye. I agree that FF is a story driven game, and in comparison to WoW it lives by it's story lol. WoW has lore, which may shock people, but at least when I played a long time ago it was really.. really optional and like not in your face.

Anyway, the test- I agree if someone was like "remove the MSQ, remove the connection to the dungeons, just make it some sort of side thing" that would be reconstructing FFXIV, and I would still discourage "go somewhere else" but I could see it being used. Now what about to what I say, what to you say to that? I say that I think the story is important but it doesn't have to be important to everyone and that if someone wanted to accelerate their intro into the game because the story hasn't (or may never will) hook them but they will enjoy other parts of the game that it's fine if they choose to play that way. I'm not asking you to approve the idea of accelerated starts, just to be clear, I'm just curious if you even though I said to not change the importance of the story and allow players to get in faster/harder (for those who don't need/want the 200 hour 'previously' on intro) is warranting 'go play something else'. If someone accelerated start the worse thing is they might not understand the story to the level you did. Some people play just to eRP, some people just craft, raid, and of course yeah the story is important and shouldn't be destroyed but I'm curious how liberally you'd apply "go some where else" if someone wants to experience other parts of the game and 'not' damage your parts.

If you apply it the most extreme situations like changing FFXIV into an RTS, 100% RTS mind you (since LoV is sort of that, but obviously just side content), then okay, but I still think the wording should be avoided since SE can decide for extra diversity if they want (like LoV, and yes I know that's not a super popular content lol), but if you're like "touch my content slightly in a way that isn't pro-how I feel, then you need to GIT" then obviously I'm just going to say 'slopeeeh'. In my personal experience here I seldom see "go somewhere else" used constructively or in good faith, and even when I saw someone who I feel tends to be of good faith used it (to me) I saw that they missed many of my arguments in response (assuming I didn't like the game just because of a content bias)- so the conversation would have been significantly better without it. Why risk the quality of the conversation like that unless you just don't actually care for the quality of the conversation? If you're not 100% certain of your foundation and asserting someone else departs because of your understanding, and if you don't care then I guess I don't see why I would be persuaded to continue caring for it either, in so much as courtesy and good faith or even 'having it' with said person. Just to be clear not saying it should be banned or no one can say it cause I 'dun liky it' lol, but I feel it's going to 'usually' be a poor choice and damaging to the conversation to use.

[Infindox]

Because FFXIV has the most toxic community, and it's getting taken over by role players who don't even leave limsa lominsa. Already most of the playerbase leaves after 2 weeks after new patch, because there is no longer that much of new content as in HW or SB.

What game are you playing? Who are you hanging around? I'm serious. There's so many games I can name off the top of my head that have a worse community. Also, those RPers you so desperately seem to hate, along with the people who just like being in game, doing content, crafting and gathering, decorating, helping newbies run things or even help them become raiders themselves, all make this game run too.

[SturmChurro]

Rules will always be easy to abuse. Its not that SE is enabling anything, just that mods are efficient with dealing what is handed to them. They could be changed, and redone. But pettiness will always find a way.

SE chooses how heavily to enforce their rules - which by the way cover EVERYTHING. You CAN be banned for anything and everything in this game, according to the ToS. It is better to just stay silent in this game. People can't just take some constructive criticism, or simply ignore it, they have to report the player who gave the said criticism. They know the GMs will ban players for giving it. SE bans for nonsense, so these players think they are in the right, like I said, their way is the right way.

It doesn't help that the community itself coddles these players, even when no reporting is going on.

[Melichoir]

Snip Snaps

The discussion would then have to start going into nuance about what is being asked and why certain changes should be entertained vs others.

So, in regards to MSQ, it is one thing to say "MSQ should be completely optional and bypassable, just like how WoW handles lore and story.", and another to say "We need to address and possibly streamline how MSQ operates at lower levels because 200+ quests to get to current content can be a bit daunting for new players" The difference is one suggestion and discussion point fundamentally understands that MSQ is a core aspect of the game, where the other suggestion treats it as filler and non essential.

What I think is that it becomes appropriate to say "Play another title" is when a core aspect is make or break for the player. If you want to completely uproot a core aspect of the game to better suit your personal preferences when you have other MMOs available to you and you wont compromise in any way, that pretty much is the end of the discussion and warrants the "Play something else" response. So if MSQ is a problem for you and you just want it to be optional and no amount of meeting in the middle will work for you, then yeah, play something else. I dont think that response is unreasonable at that point. The Play something else might get more play too if the initial critique is so lopsided that there doesn't even appear to be room for discussion. So if someone was to say "FFXIV MSQ sucks and most of FFXIV sucks. This sucks, that sucks. WoW does this better. WoW is the better MMO. FFXIV Should emulate WoW.", I wouldnt find it unreasonable for people to be blunt and say "Go play WoW then."


We can try this in reverse with the titles to demonstrate. If I was on the WoW forums and I demanded that no one should be able to move from one xpac to the next xpac until certain quests were done cause it breaks immersion cause thats how FFXIV works and I like FFXIV, should I expect people to say "Yeah that sounds good"? There is a strong probability that while I may get a small bit of support, the general response will be "This isnt FFXIV and thats not how WoW works." Which would be the correct answer. On the flip side, if I said "You know, I think the glamour plate system in FFXIV might work in WoW, so we can have multiple quick access transmogs." That might be a better discussion point that doesnt undermine WoW as a whole.

[Shougun]

The discussion would then have to start going into nuance about what is being asked and why certain changes should be entertained vs others.

So, in regards to MSQ, it is one thing to say "MSQ should be completely optional and bypassable, just like how WoW handles lore and story.", and another to say "We need to address and possibly streamline how MSQ operates at lower levels because 200+ quests to get to current content can be a bit daunting for new players" The difference is one suggestion and discussion point fundamentally understands that MSQ is a core aspect of the game, where the other suggestion treats it as filler and non essential.

What I think is that it becomes appropriate to say "Play another title" is when a core aspect is make or break for the player. If you want to completely uproot a core aspect of the game to better suit your personal preferences when you have other MMOs available to you and you wont compromise in any way, that pretty much is the end of the discussion and warrants the "Play something else" response. So if MSQ is a problem for you and you just want it to be optional and no amount of meeting in the middle will work for you, then yeah, play something else. I dont think that response is unreasonable at that point. The Play something else might get more play too if the initial critique is so lopsided that there doesn't even appear to be room for discussion. So if someone was to say "FFXIV MSQ sucks and most of FFXIV sucks. This sucks, that sucks. WoW does this better. WoW is the better MMO. FFXIV Should emulate WoW.", I wouldnt find it unreasonable for people to be blunt and say "Go play WoW then."


We can try this in reverse with the titles to demonstrate. If I was on the WoW forums and I demanded that no one should be able to move from one xpac to the next xpac until certain quests were done cause it breaks immersion cause thats how FFXIV works and I like FFXIV, should I expect people to say "Yeah that sounds good"? There is a strong probability that while I may get a small bit of support, the general response will be "This isnt FFXIV and thats not how WoW works." Which would be the correct answer. On the flip side, if I said "You know, I think the glamour plate system in FFXIV might work in WoW, so we can have multiple quick access transmogs." That might be a better discussion point that doesnt undermine WoW as a whole.

I guess ultimately I think the story is a core design but isn't required to be core enjoyed by a player to enjoy the game. In the sense that if you allowed a player to bypass say ARR / HW and start in SB that there would be nothing wrong with that if 'that' is what the player wanted. So allowing people to optionally round a core if they want isn't worth telling them to go somewhere else so long as the core remains for those who wanted it.

Not for me to say otherwise if all you do in this game is stand in front of your house and chat that doesn't mean to me you played the game wrong even if it's hardly the core of the game.

Core design, to me, is different than the core of the game for each person. Core design one should be a bit careful shifting (careful meaning it can shift but.. be careful haha), but core to each person, if it doesn't require the design to change, then I don't care what it ends up looking like to each individual.

Might argue players don't know what they want and the devs need to teach them, which might be condescending, true, and false all at once lol- so maybe some cores need to be forced but given this is a themepark I tend to not care as much to force an experience (but if you told me there is value in forcing an experience, then I would say I'm listening and likely agree to some points- dark souls is dark souls because they didn't budge and make an easy mode slider in the beginning, it could be more casual friendly but the game would feel different then).

So I guess if you told someone to go somewhere else I would be annoyed :P. Although if you were like "bla bla bla actually has everything you're looking for, I think you'll really enjoy it" I might think you were attempting to be sincere but I think that line would be really thin, because in general I still think telling someone to go else where is just a great way to throw a boulder into the conversation. "I'm done with this, Hyaah!". Maybe some people deserve a boulder, but if you toss it at someone who didn't due to a misunderstanding- well that's a bit sad and unfortunate. Of course if they go with 'sucks sucks sucks, it all sucks' like in your example they're already throwing boulders at the start of the conversation so.. they already started the damage from the get go, but that's a very clear example and we'd just have to agree being disgruntled or disappointed isn't the same as 'sucks sucks sucks, fire the dev team' lol.

To avoid changing this thread into MSQ over what I've already done, sorry OP lol, I'll stop on the topic as Skivvy was being polite to do. Apologize for the minor derail, but I think we'll disagree. But at least it wasn't hateful disagreement haha.

+1 for polite response, but don't you ever tell my boco or me to garden somewhere else!

[Gula]

What game are you playing? Who are you hanging around? I'm serious. There's so many games I can name off the top of my head that have a worse community. Also, those RPers you so desperately seem to hate, along with the people who just like being in game, doing content, crafting and gathering, decorating, helping newbies run things or even help them become raiders themselves, all make this game run too.

Same logic as cartoons only being for children no exceptions. Roleplayers are an easy target for being different and therefore people get a high off insults and being the big boy in town with 0 context.

So what if you pay a sub to run Savage and get an RP glam. Youre not a REAL player. So what if the animation industry has been tailored to adults throughout its history, its not real entertainment beyond what children watch.

Get me?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Because FFXIV has the most toxic community, and it's getting taken over by role players who don't even leave limsa lominsa. Already most of the playerbase leaves after 2 weeks after new patch, because there is no longer that much of new content as in HW or SB.

I guess the fc full of rpers on jenova who have tons of ultimate raiders must not be a thing then.

Sorry, I guess I was just seeing things.


There are good and bad rpers just likely every other community of people in the game.

There are good and bad casual players, good and bad crafter/gatherers, mentors especially, etc.

This comment you made just shows extreme bias.

I admit to making fun of rpers a lot, but I don't actually think they are all bad. I'm just tired of seeing brothel adverts.

We all rp to a degree when playing these games after all.

[Skivvy]

What game are you playing? Who are you hanging around? I'm serious. There's so many games I can name off the top of my head that have a worse community. Also, those RPers you so desperately seem to hate, along with the people who just like being in game, doing content, crafting and gathering, decorating, helping newbies run things or even help them become raiders themselves, all make this game run too.

I think one of the best things people can do to ensure a more favorable in-game experience is to not spend a lot of time on the forums. Quite often people go to forums to complain, vent, share ridiculous experiences, fight with others (don't recommend this, but some people just don't know how to converse properly), air grievances, etc. That's all to be expected, but it can definitely skew your opinion of the playerbase and the game as a whole.

It's a bit like watching the news. The news quite often feels like it's 25 minutes of highlighting all the horrible stuff happening around the world, then you have 2 minutes for weather and one quick feel good story and you're done! If that's all you took in during your day, you'd start thinking the majority of people are awful and the world needs a reset button. There's a lot of good out there, but it's difficult to see when you're constantly bombarded with the bad.

So if you're new to the forums, escape now! Or at least try to not take this place too seriously. It's far too late for me at this point, but we may be able to save some of you!