Did people even ask for changes to AST, like they do / did for MNK and MCH?

[bundythenoob]

It has been brought up before multiple times since the media tour for ShB but we've never had an official response. When it's discussed on the forums (outside the healer section that is) the posts discussing the issue are usually ignored or it's seen as a non-issue. At times it seems like the lack of engagement on the issue is a sort of tacit approval of the current state of things, which just demoralizes people and prevents further/continued discussion. Defeatism has set in.

I imagine we'll see the issue being picked up again for the next media tour, but who knows how far out that is.


I do think there is a serious disconnect between the devs and the community however. If we look at the ShB media tour again there were multiple examples where the devs outright failed to understand and communicate with the community, Japanese or foreign, when it came to healers. It almost felt as if they didn't know how to handle healers, so they kept trying to brush us under the rug and ignore us or something.

Not going to lie, I'm still a little salty over their lack of any questions/answers during their interviews as well lol. I just hope the next tour is more professional.

i for one am still ultra salted over the DRK and SCH gameplay identity changes, and the lack of necessary QOL updates to bring DRK and SCHs leveling kits up to par with their fellow jobs has left me in a state of barely wanting to play the jobs that brought me to love this game. I seriously hope that some of the insane amount of money this game generates get put into hiring at least one competent developer for both tanks and healers, because the future won't look so bright if they continue to rely on reluctant DPS devs to balance the role.

[Absurdity]

I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM. One nuke + 1 dot + random occasional oGCD heal? Wonderful, amazing, best the job has ever been. Oh we're talking about a job that's not WHM? Horrible, awful, need to revert immediately, why would anyone enjoy this.

All I'm saying is, now that all three healers have been dumbed down to approximately the same level of boredom, I find it really interesting that most of this forum thinks this is both a wonderful thing for WHMs and a terrible thing for everyone else. Really gets the noggin joggin'.

I don't think people are really happy with WHM either, just that WHM in SB was so bad that they take anything they can get at this point. ShB WHM, while still not great, is a significant improvement over 4.x WHM whereas SCH got completely butchered and AST had it's fair share of terrible design decisions as well.

[Limonia]

I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM. One nuke + 1 dot + random occasional oGCD heal? Wonderful, amazing, best the job has ever been. Oh we're talking about a job that's not WHM? Horrible, awful, need to revert immediately, why would anyone enjoy this.

All I'm saying is, now that all three healers have been dumbed down to approximately the same level of boredom, I find it really interesting that most of this forum thinks this is both a wonderful thing for WHMs and a terrible thing for everyone else. Really gets the noggin joggin'.

The current lily system is a big improvement over the previous one.
I'm enjoying that aspect of WHM. And I think many others are the same. With the Afflatus heals they went in the right direction, to give WHM something at least. That doesn't mean WHM is wonderful or amazing, only compared to the absolute mess we had before. I hope healers will be better, more interesting, in the next expansion, without becoming even more dumbed down and/or clunky.

[ForteNightshade]

I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM. One nuke + 1 dot + random occasional oGCD heal? Wonderful, amazing, best the job has ever been. Oh we're talking about a job that's not WHM? Horrible, awful, need to revert immediately, why would anyone enjoy this.

All I'm saying is, now that all three healers have been dumbed down to approximately the same level of boredom, I find it really interesting that most of this forum thinks this is both a wonderful thing for WHMs and a terrible thing for everyone else. Really gets the noggin joggin'.

It's more to do with people accepting White Mage as the lesser of three evils. While equally flawed in its tediousness. White Mage's simplicity works better because that's always been the overall focus of the job. Scholar, meanwhile, lost a huge amount of its identity as the more DPS focused healers that managed a pet. While Astro had its whole card system revamped—a change many players still hate. Basically, White Mage's gimmick worked. Absurdity also brings up a good point. This is the first time since Creator White Mage is actually valued beyond being the "prog healer." Last expansion, you were pretty much expected to play Astro even in mid-core statics not only due to FFlogs but because Astro was objectively better in nearly every category.

[Reyna_Balmore]

I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM. One nuke + 1 dot + random occasional oGCD heal? Wonderful, amazing, best the job has ever been. Oh we're talking about a job that's not WHM? Horrible, awful, need to revert immediately, why would anyone enjoy this.

All I'm saying is, now that all three healers have been dumbed down to approximately the same level of boredom, I find it really interesting that most of this forum thinks this is both a wonderful thing for WHMs and a terrible thing for everyone else. Really gets the noggin joggin'.

Yea, I would explain myself, because I guess it isn't obvious as I thought it should have been, but the responses above pretty much explains it all.

BUT, I would add that they should use 5.0 Whm, 4.0 Ast / Sch as a base to build off of and improve even further

[MorionQ]

I’m returning after bouncing out in 4.2 and the AST changes make my brain hurt. Both AST and SCH look like they heard my complaints about controller button bloat and just canned everything..... despite those complaints being from 3.0. I will absolutely add to the pile that Balance was, literally, the only good card since it was purely beneficial in all situations. Everything else had some issue in certain situations, mostly resource management, that simply wasn’t a factor with Balance.

What little I’m gleaning from this recent patched I’ve walked into is AST was gutted of complexity and RNG.

[Semirhage]

It's more to do with people accepting White Mage as the lesser of three evils. While equally flawed in its tediousness. White Mage's simplicity works better because that's always been the overall focus of the job. Scholar, meanwhile, lost a huge amount of its identity as the more DPS focused healers that managed a pet. While Astro had its whole card system revamped—a change many players still hate.

Oh I get that- I'm just trying to tease the premises behind one of the prevailing opinions around here to their logical conclusion. So we have the boring simple healer and the two complex healers. The complex healers became boring and simple too. What makes me roll my eyes is the suggestion that we return the two more complex healers to their former glory, but starting from the boring and simple 5.x is good enough for the WHMs. Making it less boring is a task to be solved going forward. Or something. Which I think is partially highlighted here:

This is the first time since Creator White Mage is actually valued beyond being the "prog healer." Last expansion, you were pretty much expected to play Astro even in mid-core statics not only due to FFlogs but because Astro was objectively better in nearly every category.

Excellent! Finally a place outside being a throwaway progression healer. I don't think this is a point in 5.x WHM's favor. It's because the two perenially overpowered healers got hit by a bus. I guess the flaw I see here is that A) making SCH and AST overpowered "good at everything" healers again, while also B) keeping WHM as Babby's First Healer who's only good at direct damage and direct healing are two concepts that to me smell like they inevitably lead to...well, a healing landscape where WHM is the job that gets trashcanned by the two that are just better in every way. Again.

I'd like all three healers to get a deluxe spa treatment and emerge in 6.0 as fun, smooth, and great jobs. What I disagree with is the implicit claim that "the significantly simpler healer" versus "the complex healers" is a tractable problem that we'll just iron out in design details. I think pigeonholing WHM in the "braindead simple healer" category is exactly the cause of its tedium and chronic underpowered state, and trying to "bring it up" to the other two while also enforcing this "pressing more than three buttons is too hard" identity on it is only going to end in exactly what happened in Stormblood. But hey, at least ASTs and SCHs were having fun then.

[bundythenoob]

I'd like all three healers to get a deluxe spa treatment and emerge in 6.0 as fun, smooth, and great jobs. What I disagree with is the implicit claim that "the significantly simpler healer" versus "the complex healers" is a tractable problem that we'll just iron out in design details. I think pigeonholing WHM in the "braindead simple healer" category is exactly the cause of its tedium and chronic underpowered state, and trying to "bring it up" to the other two while also enforcing this "pressing more than three buttons is too hard" identity on it is only going to end in exactly what happened in Stormblood. But hey, at least ASTs and SCHs were having fun then.

It's definitely possible to make WHM more complex while keeping its "simple" roots. if anything I definitely think aero 3 needs to return and fluid aura needs to play an integral part of its dps rotation. there should be a rework to divine benison that makes it act like the healer equivalent of TBN, something to spice the gameplay up. I can't really think of any ways to do it myself, but hopefully they hire a healer developer who can, because going forward they need to keep all of the healers balanced, or else SHB was all for nothing

[Rai_Takara]

Yes, they do.

My favorite go to example is Bard. I got into bard right towards the end of ARR, when it was pretty good and pretty fun. Then heavensward dropped. Oops. As the expac went on, people on the forums just went "git gud and adapt" and fans of the class lost more and more hope. But come Stormblood they - thankfully - completely ditched the "bard mage" concept. And both bringing the concept about and then abolishing it again pretty much completely changed how the job worked and played.

With the enormous amount of feedback on AST cards, I don't think there's any doubt at all that the current system is a dead card walking for 6.0. Of course, I do understand waiting for the next expac is painful. WHM is the healer I play most and we just got out of Stormblood which was a hellish time for the job. But then, WHM serves as another example. SE was told many, many times what a terrible, horrible system lillies are, and in Shadowbringers it was thoroughly reworked and overhauled.

Back to AST cards again, the dev team already apologized in one of the earlier... interviews or LLs? I don't remember which exactly. They know people don't like it. Chances are they're already planning a redesign. It's just a matter waiting though again, I do relate to how waiting can be painful.

That being said, I think there's a pretty close to zero chance we'll see AST cards similar to 3.x/4.x. Personally, I think the current AST is setup nicely for the next expansion where they can expand upon the cards and seal system. Game has gone past the system of RNG damage buffs and it can no longer be tolerated in this day and age.

[Gravagar]

That being said, I think there's a pretty close to zero chance we'll see AST cards similar to 3.x/4.x. Personally, I think the current AST is setup nicely for the next expansion where they can expand upon the cards and seal system. Game has gone past the system of RNG damage buffs and it can no longer be tolerated in this day and age.

I do kinda agree. I'm viewing any card / AST changes as just bandaids to hold us over till the next expansion.


It sucks that we're going to have to wait a full year-plus to have a fully-baked system, and by no means would I complain if we got a reversion... but at the same time, I'd love for them to come up with some wild addition that makes everybody say "yo, this new system is DOPE." I'm still very concerned about the people doing the AST revamps and the higher-up direction they're being given... If nothing changes, the results might wind up being similar.