Somebody needs to sit Yoko down....

[phantomr23]

Cheap jebait mechanics are not a challenge.

There is no punishment in these fights other than the "gimmick" mechanic. It's why 5 people who understand the mechanic after seeing it once or twice can recover the entire raid and one-shot every boss on day 0.

And it will be the reason why this raid will be a complete faceroll from week 2 onwards.

Could you actually say what mechanic are "cheap jebaits", exactly? Which mechanics exactly are unreactable or fake you out consistently in a way that you can't possibly predict?

[Vyrerus]

The only real trick ones I remember are the ones during the final boss where the tells aren't concrete on a first viewing to know where the safety is going to be. Like Laserwhatever Decapitation. It's a donut AOE, but to me it looked like the first time that the draw in of the lasergun spindles were going to blow back the way they'd just drawn over the room.

So I guess what they mean by, "jebaited" whatever the heck that actually means is mechanics that you only get wrong once, due to ignorance on what their tell means/is.

[Lunafreya]

I thought this was a lot easier than Copied factory. I have had zero wipes/abandons on Puppet's Bunker so far. I didn't find many of the fights that interesting either even as a NieR fan it felt pretty boring.

[LariaKirin]

Could you actually say what mechanic are "cheap jebaits", exactly? Which mechanics exactly are unreactable or fake you out consistently in a way that you can't possibly predict?

Each of them has this one gimmick:

2nd boss - Swords. You don't notice the swords? There's no way you're reacting. You notice the swords? Welp, the sword mechanic is the entire fight.
3rd boss - Screens. You don't notice the screens? You have no chance to react to the pods. You notice the screens? Welp, the screens are the entire fight.
4th boss - Tether teleport. You don't notice which tether shows the teleport? You have no chance to react. You notice the pulsing tether? Welp, the tether is the entire fight.

Something more related to the OP: The lasers are low or high. Your intuition says low tethers shoot close, high tethers shoot far. Nope, jebaited.

So I guess what they mean by, "jebaited" whatever the heck that actually means is mechanics that you only get wrong once, due to ignorance on what their tell means/is.

Pretty much. Punishing mechanics that rely on obscure tells to kill a bunch of people. Meanwhile, the more standard mechanics are not punishing at all. The first time you do the fight, you lose half the raid to these mechanics. The second time, the fight is trivial because it relies competely on said obscure tells.

Because of this, you can go down to 5 people and recover back to 24 and still one-shot each of these bosses on a day 0 blind run. Give it a week and these fights will be an easy faceroll in random pugs.

[phantomr23]

Each of them has this one gimmick:

2nd boss - Swords. You don't notice the swords? There's no way you're reacting. You notice the swords? Welp, the sword mechanic is the entire fight.
3rd boss - Screens. You don't notice the screens? You have no chance to react to the pods. You notice the screens? Welp, the screens are the entire fight.
4th boss - Tether teleport. You don't notice which tether shows the teleport? You have no chance to react. You notice the pulsing tether? Welp, the tether is the entire fight.

Something more related to the OP: The lasers are low or high. Your intuition says low tethers shoot close, high tethers shoot far. Nope, jebaited.

Well, that's even less reasonable than I'd expected so thanks for that, I guess. This describes every single mechanic in the game to the point that I'm genuinely baffled - don't notice how the mirrors work in Shiva, how the portals work on Idol of Darkness, how the elements work on the new story trial? Parsing a core mechanic and seeing it get extrapolated into more complex situations is the entire game. There's a reason that all 3 of the mechanics you named start with a low stress version; you get the swords in the triangle formation before the more dangerous centre dashes, the screens appear above the pods in the easy safe spot version before the more complex one, and the final boss starts with a simple variation where there are only two tethers before it gets paired with other mechanics. These aren't "obscure tells", they're new mechanics that people seem to be mad they didn't figure out, I guess? How are you expecting content that isn't just the same 3 recycled mechanics if you consider "having to look at a screen" a step too far for you?

Also, same applies to the lasers. I didn't even figure out the low/high thing, I just... stood in between where two sets would appear and adjusted after the first set. Didn't get hit a single time.

[Absurdity]

I thought this was a lot easier than Copied factory. I have had zero wipes/abandons on Puppet's Bunker so far. I didn't find many of the fights that interesting either even as a NieR fan it felt pretty boring.

Interesting, I actually feel the complete opposite way. I found the Puppet's Bunker to be significantly more interesting than Copied Factory. Granted it still looks like Nier which doesn't make for very mesmerizing environment design but it's certainly a step up from dilapidated office buildings and 50 shades of grey in grey. The bosses atleast have some interesting gimmicks where you need to pay attention, in Copied Factory the challenge from day 1 for me was to not fall asleep due to the mechanics being so forgiving that wiping was actually the most difficult part of it.


I do admit that I am biased against the whole Nier raid though. It's not that I dislike Nier itself but the 24man raids that were based in Final Fantasy in some form or another were just a lot more interesting visually than grey robots with grey arenas and grey walls in the background and a lot more interesting when it comes to expanding the game's lore.

[Gula]

None of the mechanics are that cheap though. They all have a logic behind them

That's a lot to ask and be understood by a good chunk of players.

[LariaKirin]

Well, that's even less reasonable than I'd expected so thanks for that, I guess. This describes every single mechanic in the game to the point that I'm genuinely baffled - don't notice how the mirrors work in Shiva, how the portals work on Idol of Darkness, how the elements work on the new story trial? Parsing a core mechanic and seeing it get extrapolated into more complex situations is the entire game. There's a reason that all 3 of the mechanics you named start with a low stress version; you get the swords in the triangle formation before the more dangerous centre dashes, the screens appear above the pods in the easy safe spot version before the more complex one, and the final boss starts with a simple variation where there are only two tethers before it gets paired with other mechanics. These aren't "obscure tells", they're new mechanics that people seem to be mad they didn't figure out, I guess? How are you expecting content that isn't just the same 3 recycled mechanics if you consider "having to look at a screen" a step too far for you?

Also, same applies to the lasers. I didn't even figure out the low/high thing, I just... stood in between where two sets would appear and adjusted after the first set. Didn't get hit a single time.

It absolutely does not describe every mechanic in the game.

Shiva mirrors are intuitive. She spawns mirrors. She does mechanic. Mirrors will do same mechanic.
Portals are intuitive. Shoots things in portals. Things come out of portals.
Elements are intuitive. Blizzard freezes, fire burns. Pyretic might not be expected, but people have previous experience with these mechanics.

Most people will intuit these.

Center sword dashes are actually intuitive because the fight makes you dodge the circles and forces you to look towards the robots pulling swords. Triangle is not.
There's nothing about a pulsing tether that means "destination" - it could very well be a massive explosion. Clearly she's gonna teleport. But one baits you into a one-shot.

You didn't figure out the low/high laser thing because there is no way to. There is nothing about those lasers that is intuitive. Either you get lucky, react fast enough to not die, or die. Then you know how it works and you never get hit by it again.

To clarify, I don't think it's all bad. The thing I think is bad is that the entire so-called "difficulty" of these fights relies entirely on these one-shots. Just do it again this week and you'll see what I mean.

[Legion88]

It absolutely does not describe every mechanic in the game.

Shiva mirrors are intuitive. She spawns mirrors. She does mechanic. Mirrors will do same mechanic.
Portals are intuitive. Shoots things in portals. Things come out of portals.
Elements are intuitive. Blizzard freezes, fire burns. Pyretic might not be expected, but people have previous experience with these mechanics.

Most people will intuit these.

Center sword dashes are actually intuitive because the fight makes you dodge the circles and forces you to look towards the robots pulling swords. Triangle is not.
There's nothing about a pulsing tether that means "destination" - it could very well be a massive explosion. Clearly she's gonna teleport. But one baits you into a one-shot.

You didn't figure out the low/high laser thing because there is no way to. There is nothing about those lasers that is intuitive. Either you get lucky, react fast enough to not die, or die. Then you know how it works and you never get hit by it again.

To clarify, I don't think it's all bad. The thing I think is bad is that the entire so-called "difficulty" of these fights relies entirely on these one-shots. Just do it again this week and you'll see what I mean.

Not everything has to be intuitive. It just needs a tell and you have to find out what the tell is. For Shiva the tell for the mirrors is their color and for the high/low lasers it is the high/low. You have to find out how the tell works and how the rest of the mechanic interacts with that.
A mechanic you have to fail to start understand it and its tells is not a bad mechanic it's just more complicated and not braindead.

[Gula]

Not everything has to be intuitive. It just needs a tell and you have to find out what the tell is. For Shiva the tell for the mirrors is their color and for the high/low lasers it is the high/low. You have to find out how the tell works and how the rest of the mechanic interacts with that.
A mechanic you have to fail to start understand it and its tells is not a bad mechanic it's just more complicated and not braindead.

In the developer side content, that is sadly ignored, how they design battles has been explained, and I'm positive this was said in the Making of Shadowbringers video. It was not word for word, but it was the outline. Either the battle design video or it was during a Live Letter interview. But you can still figure it out by playing the game. You fail, you figure out what it is you didn't see. Like Suzaku's birb.

It reminds me a lot of Shin Megami Tensei games (not Persona) where you'll get slapped hard if you don't learn what the boss' weakness is, or how to counter their spells. Remember what to look out for, and you're fine.
Except every trash enemy hits like a boss.