DRK enmity gen vs other tanks

[ForteNightshade]

And if you didn't have tank stance on but you weren't second on enmity list, your main tank expected you to use enmity combos... Before the advent of Provoke + Shirk...

Uh, no they didn't. The OT only touched their aggro combo if they were picking up an add. Even then, particularly aggressive Dark Knights and Warriors throughout Creator still grabbed adds without tank stance. If there was aggro issues due to lacking Shadewalker, the Warrior voked and turned on Defiance+Unchained. They didn't even have to use a Butcher's combo. Just a combo and an Equilibrium overheal was more than enough. You never used aggro combos as the OT.

Now everyone in the party are wondering why the off tank isn't second on enmity list because they get destroyed by the boss, and if your off tank isn't dead and they don't have tank stance on, it's time to bring back enmity combos... and DPS stances for good measure...

There's no reason for anyone else to care about the aggro list. Either the boss targets both tanks, in which case keeping your stance on solves the issue. Or it doesn't and being second aggro makes no difference whatsoever. Bringing back enmity combos would lead to the situation they were in previously: completely ignored. If you made them DPS neutral, then they're glorified glamours that serve no purpose.

[Vyrerus]

Uh, no they didn't. The OT only touched their aggro combo if they were picking up an add. Even then, particularly aggressive Dark Knights and Warriors throughout Creator still grabbed adds without tank stance. If there was aggro issues due to lacking Shadewalker, the Warrior voked and turned on Defiance+Unchained. They didn't even have to use a Butcher's combo. Just a combo and an Equilibrium overheal was more than enough. You never used aggro combos as the OT.

Incorrect in a double WAR comp. And technically incorrect in comp with PLD before the Royal Authority combo switched over to Riot Blade.

[ForteNightshade]

Incorrect in a double WAR comp. And technically incorrect in comp with PLD before the Royal Authority combo switched over to Riot Blade.

Perhaps in ARR days, which I cannot speak to readily as I only started in Heavensward. But once the DPS focused meta established itself late Gordias, the OT was not using aggro combos. Furthermore, double anything was not meta by that point thus is rather moot. And as you said, Paladin had their combo swapped to avoid aggro issues. By the time Creator came around, it wasn't uncommon to see tanks picking up adds without stance or aggro combos even if it meant letting the DPS eat an auto or two. They certainly weren't aggro combo-ing.

[Absurdity]

Perhaps in ARR days, which I cannot speak to readily as I only started in Heavensward. But once the DPS focused meta established itself late Gordias, the OT was not using aggro combos. Furthermore, double anything was not meta by that point thus is rather moot. And as you said, Paladin had their combo swapped to avoid aggro issues. By the time Creator came around, it wasn't uncommon to see tanks picking up adds without stance or aggro combos even if it meant letting the DPS eat an auto or two. They certainly weren't aggro combo-ing.

He is technically right. If you didn't need to debuff the boss with Storm's Path and it wouldn't cause enmity issues you would use Butcher's because it simply had a higher potency, that was before the SB changes where Path gained you more "rage" than BB.

[Vyrerus]

Perhaps in ARR days, which I cannot speak to readily as I only started in Heavensward. But once the DPS focused meta established itself late Gordias, the OT was not using aggro combos. Furthermore, double anything was not meta by that point thus is rather moot. And as you said, Paladin had their combo swapped to avoid aggro issues. By the time Creator came around, it wasn't uncommon to see tanks picking up adds without stance or aggro combos even if it meant letting the DPS eat an auto or two. They certainly weren't aggro combo-ing.

Assuming that people only played with the exact meta in raiding is a silly way to think about the time period(and the game in any time really). People used double WAR all the time due to its OP self-healing and reliant damage output that had less variance than DRK's due to part of DRK's being tied up in low blow procs/Reprisal. Sell runs and the like used double WAR all the time. The only time to not double WAR was when LB charge mattered, which wasn't a lot of fights, and in early prog due to having more damage downs on the boss(Reprisal/Delirium).

[ForteNightshade]

Assuming that people only played with the exact meta in raiding is a silly way to think about the time period(and the game in any time really). People used double WAR all the time due to its OP self-healing and reliant damage output that had less variance than DRK's due to part of DRK's being tied up in low blow procs/Reprisal. Sell runs and the like used double WAR all the time. The only time to not double WAR was when LB charge mattered, which wasn't a lot of fights, and in early prog due to having more damage downs on the boss(Reprisal/Delirium).

I never said they only played with the "exact meta." But the overwhelming majority of tank comps were WAR/DRK. Making them the most relevant to the discussion. PLD had aggro issues but that was among the reasons it wasn't often brought.

No, they did not. There is not a single ranked speed log from the Heavensward era with double Warrior. Dark Knight was undeniably the second tank. I have no idea where you've heard otherwise but it wasn't the case—nor was double Warrior all that common. Basing anything off sale groups is silly. They aren't trying to optimize unless they're selling a parse. Even then, they'll pad that one player not the entire team. Regardless, the crux of the argument was the OT used aggro combos for enmity. They didn't. Butcher's used to be a DPS gain before they buffed Storm's Path.

[Vyrerus]

FFlogs

FFlogs =/= raiding playerbase, and ranked speed kills are even less common. You said OTs never used enmity combos, period. There was no delineation for solely enmity. And it doesn't even matter if it's dual WAR comp, because even in a DRK/WAR comp, the DRK MTs for their parry based damage procs back then, if the boss's AAs are physical, and the WAR OTs and uses their Butcher's Block combo, the enmity combo until enmity becomes an issue. What you said was wrong, get over it.

[ForteNightshade]

FFlogs =/= raiding playerbase, and ranked speed kills are even less common. You said OTs never used enmity combos, period. There was no delineation for solely enmity. And it doesn't even matter if it's dual WAR comp, because even in a DRK/WAR comp, the DRK MTs for their parry based damage procs back then, if the boss's AAs are physical, and the WAR OTs and uses their Butcher's Block combo, the enmity combo until enmity becomes an issue. What you said was wrong, get over it.

Yes, let's dismiss a website entirely dedicated to tracking this information and go with your opinion. You haven't provided a single shred of evidence yet I can find several within a matter of minutes that completely contradicts your argument. You claimed people used double Warrior all the time based on... what, exactly? Your personal experience? That's why anecdote mean very little. "No dupes" has pretty much been ubiquitous in PF for years. That isn't to say some groups don't allow it, but you're trying to argue it as common. When it never was.

Admittedly, I was mistaken with regards to Butcher's because I forgot it once was a DPS gain. But the entire crux of this debate has been how it relates to enmity. That's the delineation. Aggro combos weren't being spammed nor was Butcher's used for enmity but damage. That distinction is important because had Storm's Path been a gain over Butcher's, they would be using Path instead. Even with Butcher's technically being a gain, it was still very infrequently used; less than a quarter of Storm's Eye on average going by logs from Heavensward. So no, Warrior did not use BB until it "became an issue." They barely used it at all. So kindly take your own advice.